<p>Xiggi notes, "
2. For selective schools, it would not mean a whole lot for a student ranked 45% at a tough HS to move to an easier school and end up ranked 9 or 10%. The story is a bit different for a student ranked in the top 20% who could become val or sal."</p>
<p>Response: This isn't as easy as it sounds in Maryland. Unless we move homes, Maryland rarely allows transfers. Moreover, I am not sure that I would ever want my kids in underperforming high schools. Would you want to attend a mediocre college way beneath your abilities?</p>
<p>FrenchBaroque asks, "what evidence you have that this is an upward trend in college admissions. Is it just an impression? </p>
<p>Response: Yes, this is an impression from attending numerous college tours. I certainly haven't analyzed hundreds or thousands of schools as to their admission's policies. However, I don't remember this being a problem long ago.</p>
<p>Curmudgeon, Yes, I agree that with the top, most selective schools, class toughness is an important factor with the exception of UT. Maybe I have been unlucky to see this in the few schools that I have examined and am making an illogical judgemental fallacyto the schools that I have not investigated.</p>
<p>I believe that the school profile helps the colleges understand both GPA and class rank better in the context of the sending HS. At our HS, DD is ranked 8/191 with a weighted GPA (they do ranking based on weighted GPA) of 3.85. NO ONE in the class has a perfect 4.0...nada. This will be reflected on the school profile where they show the range of GPA's.</p>
<p>taxguy, I'm hoping they aren't all pulling the wool over my eyes, but Jeez-if the school is ditzy enough to fall for "matchstick math" over CalcBC, and non-honors English 4 over Dual Credit-British Literature then we're all probably better off with the rejection. Maybe I have a skewed sample, too given that D's list is so heavily weighted to smaller schools that are "selective" but in most instances not "extremely selective". I have to think that the giant factory schools would be the worst offenders but I have no personal knowledge.</p>
<p>thumper, since I found out just last week that D's school doesn't send a profile :eek:, I have taken some solace in her ranking but mostly in the schools peculiar and inconsistent practice of awarding Top Student awards in academic classes (also a flawed system, aren't they all?) . As of now she's 7/11. That should help her separate from the pack.</p>
<p>I don't want to add fuel to the fire- but that was the rationale of our HS to rank the top 10% only. They felt that there were scholarship and other academic opportunities that were more readily available to the top 10%. The district wanted to do anything they could to "showcase" the top students. They felt the other 90% would be just fine if their ranking wasn't as obvious. Now if your kid goes to a well known private school, where the GC is on first name basis with the HYP adcoms, it may not matter. But if your kid is at a normal public school with just the other regular guys, a high class ranking may distinguish you. I was at the school board meeting when the change took effect. My d was in 8th grade at the time. It was a gradual change-- those kids in 10th grade and higher would all be ranked. The kids just starting HS (9th grade) would be effected by the change and only the top 10% would be ranked. It was also said at the Board meeting that they "researched" the issue for about 2 years before the put the change in effect. Our school also uses real grades not GPA. Last year the top 10 % had averages between 95 and 101 (approx). They give 5 extra points for AP and 2 points for honors. Anyway, I am pleased with the system that's in use in my district. I don't see any downside to it.</p>
<p>Curmudgeon, I wish I were pulling the wool over your eyes. I couldn't believe my ears when I heard adcoms and even an admission's speaker, who also does consulting, spout what I have said on CC. I am still in disbelief! Maybe this is just for programs in the arts. I am surprised that a top school like RISD would not give much weight to the honors and AP courses taken. I am equally surprised that a major univeristy such as University of Cincinnati doesn't count weighted averages in any way. I guess that I should be old enough to not be surprised or shocked any any amount of stupidity.</p>
<p>One well known business friend of mine once sarcastically remarked," No one ever lost money underestimating the intelligence of the average American." When he said this I laughed. Now, I have stopped laughing at this remark.</p>
<p>For scholarships at large schools or given by institutions that go solely on the numbers, I understand the concern on ranking. The UCs do their own ranking, looking for the top 4% for the Local Context pool. But the Regents and Alumni scholarships aren't reserved for these kids alone, so the results don't impact money too much.</p>
<p>But for admissions, ranking does not seem to be the sole criteria at the schools we were looking at. I would agree, the adcoms at the most selective schools can't be dopes, and must understand that class ranking will depend on course choices. I think ranking must become more of an issue if a) the high school is not well known b) the university/college has a large number of applicants who vary widely on the metrics the schools care about. These two factors might cause reliance on absolute ranking with no insight into the factors that influence that ranking. As in, we need a number, any number to determine acceptance.</p>
<p>As far as the adcom knowing the high school, from this board I have come to understand the edge that good private high schools, or good public high schools from a wealthy district, can give. Where the child comes from a different kind of school I think curmudgeon's effort to build a school profile is absolutely the right approach. The adcoms have to be able to see the child in context.</p>
<p>Between our two kiddos, we have been to 28 info sessions. NONE mentioned class rank as a deciding factor in admissions. All mentioned (as Cur pointed out) the GPA and the aggressiveness of the course load (based on what your high school offers). This includes large state schools, smaller state schools, and private schools...in many different parts of the country. Marny..just an fyi...all of these schools also told us that they recompute GPA using a 4.0 format. So while that is what your school reports, there are lots of schools out there that will recompute using their own methodology (but all said they used a 4.0 basis).</p>
<p>If it IS a backdoor to Affirmative Action, it's AA for poorer kids, not necessarily kids of any particular underrepresented race. After all, African American kids at private schools or schools in competitive districts will be held to the same standards as the white and asian kids in those disctricts/schools when it comes to class rank requirements. Thus, this is the level playing field everyone has been looking for - giving the poorer kids the benefit that they deserve, without consideration of race.</p>
<p>I am still not convinced this is a widespread problem, nor that it is adversely affecting a large number of college applicants. I think rank is considered, if at all, as a balance to help up make for the flaws of looking solely at GPA. But in most cases, selective colleges DON'T look solely at GPA. Where it helps is for things like scholarship cutoffs. It helps some students who would be hurt by a "GPA alone" criteria.</p>
<p>"Between our two kiddos, we have been to 28 info sessions. NONE mentioned class rank as a deciding factor in admissions."</p>
<p>Thumper, since I do not know the composition of the 28 schools that gave the info sessions, I have little reason to doubt your statement. Obviously, we also KNOW that info sessions are NOT exactly the best source for accurate information. </p>
<p>However, if you would check the Common Data published by the top 50 schools in the country, you would find a rather surprising or disturbing image. </p>
<p>My parents have been discussing this precise subject at my sister's school - a school that wants to abandon ranking. The school's position is that ranking does NOT help their students and that college use a more holistic approach. That statement is absolutely wrong as EVERY one of the school on the high school "preferred" list confirmed that ranking is a VERY important factor. It also confirmed the fact that the school has been a LOT less successful in sending graduates to the so-called top schools. Ten years ago, the school routinely send graduates to HYPS (7 out of 85 to Stanford a few years ago) and NONE in the past 4 years. </p>
<p>My position on this is simple. Unless a student attends one of the mighty high schools, his application would be hurt by the absence of a ranking or a detailed profile that accomplishes the same as a COMPLETE ranking. With the number of applications exploding, you can be assured that the numerical data is the MOST important. While you should believe that the adcoms will study the application with great care, you should not expect them to spend a great amount of time in evaluating a particular school and building a GPA distribution or ranking. Adcoms EXPECT that information to be right there in front of them, and probably in a SUMMARIZED format courtesy of a technician or junior associate. </p>
<p>As far as the ranking not being important, just check with your school and find out how many students with lower ranking were accepted at the SAME college with a lower ranking. Also check the reports on CC for the past three years and you'll see that a high ranking IS one of the most common denominators. </p>
<p>Do the math ... how many valedictorians are there in the country? How large is the TOP 10% pool? How large is the top 2-3% pool.?</p>
<p>Xiggi, to state the obvious that all things being equal, a high rank is better than a low rank, is not the same as stating that a high rank is more important than rigor of curriculum, which is the issue being discussed here.</p>
<p>I don't think the schools engage in a lot of double speak on this issue-- rigor of curriculum is extremely important at the USNWR top ranked schools (not saying that they're better or worse than anyone else... just highly ranked) and for parents to conclude from this discussion that it's better to have a VAL who did underwater basket weaving than a #8 student who took AP physics is to provide misinformation of the highest order.</p>
<p>Many of the Vals and Sals in the towns around us end up at our local state U. or a reasonable facsimile... you have to go deeper into the pool to identify the kids who end up at top U's. We have massive grade inflation; it is easy to manipulate the gpa's with things like Year book and all that nonsense.... but kids with strong academic profiles (and yes, that means tough AP courses with B's vs. Band for four years with A's) and strong scores, meaningful EC's, etc. end up in competitive schools.</p>
<p>Adcoms might make mistakes but they're not idiots.</p>
<p>Blossom notes, "Adcoms might make mistakes but they're not idiots."</p>
<p>Response: I am not sure this statement is true! I just got off the phone with the head of the honors program at University of Cincinnati. Now admittedly, UC has some good programs,but it isn't Harvard or Williams. However, he noted that students need an UNWIEGHTED 3.8 to get into the honors program. I them posed the following query. If I were to take all regular courses and some gym and home econ but achieved a 3.85 GPA, I would get admitted to the honors program? His answer was "yes," if you also had the minimum required SATs,which are 1300.</p>
<p>I then asked what happens if I have 3.5 GPA from an IB program or all honors and AP and had the same SATs, would I be admitted? His answer was "no." </p>
<p>We also were told by two schools, UC and RISD, that they generally use unweighted averages, although RISD does give a very slight nudge to a mostly honors curriculum. Big deal!. </p>
<p>If I attend Univeristy of Texas and get in the top 10% of my school taking all crappy courses and no APs, I will be automatically admitted there. However, if the same student at the same high school takes all APs and honors courses but isn't in the top 10%, they will not be admitted automatically.
Thus, don't tell me that no adcoms are idiots.</p>
<p>Taxguy, then caveat emptor. Go to a school where the admissions policies are more to your liking, and avoid the schools where the adcoms are idiots, if that's your view. </p>
<p>My kids found some of the applications objectionable-- easy solution-- don't apply there. Since you don't live in Texas, the top 10% policy doesn't apply to you anyway. It's easy to whine about other people's issues, but you are hardly being hurt by an admissions policy in Texas designed for its own taxpayers when you are in Maryland.</p>
<p>"If I attend Univeristy of Texas and get in the top 10% of my school taking all crappy courses and no APs, I will be automatically admitted there. However, if the same student at the same high school takes all APs and honors courses but isn't in the top 10%, they will not be admitted automatically. Thus, don't tell me that no adcoms are idiots."</p>
<h1>Taxguy, that is NOT what is happening in Texas. The best chance for gaining an automatic acceptance is to take many AP and honors classes. The "game" is to find the best GPA boosters. </h1>
<p>Blossom, please read my posts in their context, as I never said that all rankings are equal.</p>
<p>I have had pretty much the same experience as Curmudgeon and Thumper, though at this point Ive gone to far fewer presentations (NOT 28!). Heard the same spiel at all of them class rank is a consideration but not a deciding factor. Xiggi, you may be right that the adcoms just dont want to share that info in the discussions, but I prefer to think that the class rank is being used primarily as just another piece of the puzzle. If an adcom sees something that just doesnt fit (e.g. a class rank of 3/500 but a fairly average GPA and/or SAT and/or essay) it will make them take a harder look at the overall picture to try to figure out whats going on. Similarly, a class rank of only top 20% coupled with a very good GPA and SAT score may also cause that sort of red flag to go up. Maybe Im naïve, but I havent seen the type of strong emphasis on class rank that taxguy and Xiggi are discussing. Although I shudder at the thought of getting into a detailed debate with Xig about admissions statistics Ill lose. Always. :).</p>
taxguy, you can't do that at any of our local schools because of weighting. The scenario you speak of would have to be a school without weighting,and I personally don't know of any, or very few weighted classes. You can't go to UT from our school without taking advanced, honors, and AP courses as well as some (if not all ) dual credit. We have a straight A kid in D's school that has watched her ranking decline each year for her failure to add all of the harder courses (she did add some last year) . Even with her 4.0 she is not in the top 10% by much, I think she is at the 9th and it is likely she will fall further before admission time.</p>
<p>University of Cincy seems to be all messed up. I feel for you as their policy is insane.</p>
<p>Wow, taxguy I'm really suprised. My S is looking at UC so this is of interest to us. I went to the UC website and it says the following about their honors program.</p>
<p>Admission to the University of Cincinnati Honors Scholars Program is based on much more than just test scores and high school GPA. Of course, we are looking for students who have excelled academically, but we are also looking for students who demonstrate leadership, a willingness to take on challenges, and those who have become involved in high school activities.</p>
<p>Our average Honors student has:</p>
<p>an ACT score of 29
an SAT score of 1300
a class rank in the top 10%
a high school GPA of 3.8 </p>
<p>By the way the website information is written, I assumed that UC was not concrete on either class rank, GPA or ACT scores. It just states the average class rank, GPA and ACT score.</p>
<p>It would be sad for them to preclude students that are high achievers because of the competiveness, and or grade deflation of their respective HS.</p>
<p>My S goes to a very competive HS. It would be sad if he would not be eligible for Honors because of class rank.</p>
<p>Deb922, I spoke to the head of the UC honors program, Mr. Jones. He specifically confirmed that the 3.8 required average is unweighted! You can see, they also put a lot of emphasis on class rank.</p>
<p>I agree with a previous poster...if a school's policies do not meet with your approval, apply elsewhere. These schools have set up their criteria for acceptance, scholarship, honors college...whatever...for a reason. There are other schools out there where you will not meet these obstacles...which for some students are actually a benefit. That is the way it is.</p>