Why are State Us so looked down upon by this forum?

Parents Forum
61

<p>As others have noted, you need to look deeper into the programs and not just make generic statements about public schools. For example, my son chose UMass-Amherst because the chemical engineering department impressed him with it's program, research opportunities, connections to companies and the 'feel' he got from the professors he talked with. And he felt like he could get the best of both worlds, access to everything a larger university ("underfunded" or not) has to offer while being part of a small program (ChE classes are about 60 - 65 students per graduating class).</p>

<p>Dan D</p>

62

<p>I take exception to the suggestion that a lower four year graduation rate indicates excessive partying. As a UF mom, with multiple nieces and nephews who are also members of the Gator Nation (as well as my accountant, my doctor, my lawyer, my dentist...), students who graduated in 4.5 or 5 years are not necessarily slouchers. </p>

<p>The fact that UF is inexpensive allows my son to pursue extra courses, minors, or dual major by extending his time there by just a semester or year. It allows him to take a light load some semesters, so he can work at Shands. It allows him to pursue an engineering degree that is in fact a 9 semester program. My nephew majored in engineering and business at the same time- needless to say, he didn't graduate in four years. He also spent a semester abroad. </p>

<p>Just about all the engineering programs are nine semesters, as are others like accounting. Most of the students I know who have attended UF pursued dual majors or multiple "minors". Like I said, the low expense of attending makes it possible to pursue all kinds of avenues that would be off limits if students were restricted to only eight semesters. The fact that my son is willing and happy to stay at UF an extra year is actually a good thing- my kids love the place.</p>

<p>I do agree that there is motivation to get in and get out when you're paying 40K a year. I'd be pushing my kids to get 'er done, and dabbling in other majors or switching halfway through would be a disaster for us.</p>

63

<p>This has been a very interesting thread to read. My son has also chosen Sonoma State over the 9 choices that he had. He had a couple "prestigious" private schools and a mix of other excellent private schools and an out of state university. When reading the CC site I did get the feel that we almost didn't belong on the site as it was geared more towards the "ivy types." What is very appealing about Sonoma is the size (7500 undergrads) and the small class sizes. It is like getting a private school education at a state price. My son may transfer after 2 years if they don't offer his major but he felt why spend $30-50K per year compared to $19K? Sonoma also offers an optional liberal arts GE program as well with 14 students per class which was a deciding factor for our son. The bottom line is that if the student applies themselves and is motivated they can achieve anything. Heck, I went to Cal State Fullerton and am in the top 2% of income in the country. I'm not trying to brag but only to prove a point.</p>

64

<p>As has been pointed out already, not all state schools are created equal and many are experiencing deep cuts in funding.</p>

<p>And simply put, the cream of the crop students who sacrificed sleep and leisure, who worked excessively hard for many years, are not willing to settle for sitting in the same college classroom as the kid from their high school who took easy classes and partied for 4 years.</p>

65

<p>This is the first year that someone I know who applied to CSULB from our local hs and was rejected. This applicant had a good gpa, but wasn't a good test taker.</p>

<p>The California state schools were particularly competitive this year. There was another thread that talked about how GCs were shocked at the rejections received by their higher end kids from UCs that were viewed as "safeties."</p>

66

<p>S1 applied to two schools, an out of state public that would have been just as expensive as most privates and our in-state flagship ED. He got accepted in-state so that is where he goes. It isn't as good a fit socially for him as the other option, which he realized at the time he applied, but was a compromise he was willing to make because the in-state school is cheaper and more convenient. Note, that for him the larger public school was his ideal, and he settled for the smaller (arguably more elite) public school on the grounds of cost. He never had an interest in any private schools, although he had strong grades, because he wanted a large school. He continues to believe he would have been happier at the other school and probably gotten as good an education as well, but price does matter and he remains comfortable with his decision.</p>

<p>S2 does not have the grades to get into our state flagships (so obviously not a candidate for an elite private either), but has no interest in any private schools anyway. He wants a school with a nationally known sports team (football and/or basketball) so he can follow games as an alum. Watching sports with his dad has been a big part of his life growing up and he associates college with getting a team of his very own. That may be a stupid thing to look for in a school, but it is what he cares about. Also, this child is like a mule. Pull on his halter and he pulls back. He does much better when he thinks nobody is looking, so the distance from teachers he will find at a large public should actually help him academically. </p>

<p>I could theoretically have had children who would thrive in the social climate of an LAC and there seems to be a preponderance of those types on cc but neither of the kids I actually do have fit that mold. They would feel claustrophobic at a small school. As a result, private schools aren’t even under consideration in this household.</p>

67

<p>Yes. ellemenope, hs counselors are having to do some "splain'in" because of the number of students who have been rejected from their "match" or even for some, their safety schools. </p>

<p>One big surprise in the Cal States was the number of outstanding applicants rejected by SDSU. The average GPA of accepted students was very high this year as was the number of applicants.</p>

68

<p>If you look at the individual colleges on this forum, you'll see that the ivies have their own categories. This forum is really made up mainly of people who are looking at the intricacies of admissions. Most state schools are pretty straightforward about how you get in. Grades, test scores and date of application. Very little else counts for much. The apps are short and often have no essay. Also most highschool counselors are pretty well in tune as to who gets into the state schools. It's when you start getting out of local circles and going to nationally known schools, that the details start to matter.</p>

69

<p>State Universities frequently offer a lot of bang for the buck. They frequently have better programs in some disciplines that are very specialized. The smartest students are probably as smart as a lot of the students at an elite university. However there is a difference in the classroom. In a typical class, assuming the top 25% at a state u are equal to the average at an elite school, the issue is the other 75%. The average student in a state u class is not at the same level as that at an elite. Even using the same textbook, a good professor can go much faster depending on the ability of his class. The objective of a professor should be to make certain that students understand the material not necessarily finish the book. In a class with less able students, if the professor cares, he will go slower and not cover the material as thoroughly. The typical student in an elite school is better prepared and frequently more motivated so they learn more. The big question is does this translate into a long term benefit career or income wise. There are a number of conflicting studies out there, but I would suspect that the answer is probably no in most cases. This is because what is learned in college usually has little relevance to the employment world. Typically on a job, you will be trained, frequently your degree has nothing to do with what you ultimately do. Also and more importantly, the biggest factor as to how successful most people will be is based on their people skills which doesn't vary between students in an elite school or state u.</p>

70

<p>The quality of students who are able to get into State Us... I don't think it's elitist to want to be around students who are equally intelligent and motivated.</p>

71

<p>No...but it IS elitist to assume that those students are only at certain schools. When Harvard accepts...what is it at now, like 7%?...you have to know that those students end up at all types of schools. INCLUDING State schools <em>GASP</em>.</p>

72

<p>I know there are great students everywhere and people who as intelligent or more intelligent than I am everywhere. But at our Big State U, and it's quite high ranked for a public university, that accepts the majority of in-state applicants, the classes aren't very challenging and the prevailing mentality is kind of anti-intellectual... kind of like the difference between being in gifted/AP classes and regular ones, there are great students in both but they're rare in the latter and common in the former. And I'm motivated by competition... seeing great essays written by other students makes me want to perfect mine, that kind of thing. Otherwise I'd grow complacent/bored.</p>

<p>That's not to say I wouldn't quite happily go there if it ended up being the best financial choice, but it's why the state flagship is my safety and not my first choice.</p>

73

<p>I attended both a public university(Ohio State) and an Ivy League university(Cornell) and can attest to the fact that the differerces are far less than conventional wisdom would lead us to believe, at least in engineering.</p>

74

<p>For some technical and specialized programs (engineering, pharmacy, etc), state universities are often just as good or better, and may be the only type of school where such programs are offered.</p>

75

<p>See, I have a problem with both sides of this debate.</p>

<p>Head over to the Ivy forums, and you'll see a bunch of Ivy-league students and multitudes of students who want to be in the aforementioned group fellating (sorry for the imagery, but hey) every aspect of those prestigious universities, constantly assuring themselves that they are superior/will do better in life because of where they go (or, want to go).</p>

<p>Then you go to other places on the forum (like here, for example), and get to watch kids who aren't going to a prestigious college make implicitly insulting comments about the aforementioned Ivy League students and schools, and get to hear comments like "Well they're not that good" and any number of devaluations of the worth of Ivy League schools and primping of non-Ivy League universities. This thread is a great example. And it's just as bad.</p>

<p>Why can't all of you just accept that there are always going to be idiots out there who don't have a good sense of perspective or head on their shoulders, and be secure in that fact without having to stoop down to their level and insult them to do so?</p>

<p>Those of us who know the truth - namely that almost any school can be the right fit for a given person, that a person can be successful almost anywhere, that prestige means very little for the average student, and that with the exception of a certain few prestige-oriented recruitment industries (IBanking, consulting), job prospects are unlikely to even be significantly different - will always be secure in where we go, and never feel the need to either insult anyone else's school, artificially inflate our own, or make stupid threads complaining about the fact that others do. </p>

<p>I suggest, HGFM, that you take a good hard look at yourself, ask if you really care what a group of obviously misguided HS students (and, to an extent, college students) thinks, and then when you answer "no" (as I am confident you will), this thread will become frivolous to you.</p>

76

<p>I appreciate your perspective, 1of42...really, I do. :)</p>

<p>But I think you misunderstood what I was trying to do. I honestly think the Ivies are great schools. If you can get in, you're obviously something special. </p>

<p>However, what I don't understand (and probably never will) is Ivy fascination and the mindset where that's the only type of school that's acceptable to go to. That was more what I was asking. Does that make more sense?</p>

77

<p>Yes, it certainly does. I suspect it has no easy answer, but probably has a lot to do with the psychology of signalling worth via labels (the same kind of thing that brand names are based on).</p>

78

<p>Its not that Berkeley couldn't attract more high SAT scorers.....if you look at the data only around 47% of those with scores over 700 get in. Berk rejected over 5500 students last year with scores above 700. Last year Berkeley enrolled about 1600 high scorers.......in 1994 it was over 2000. Since Cal started the holistic way of reviewing applications the admissions for Berkeley are very erratic based when looking at SAT......which unfortunately is what most people see as Berkeley's primary weakness compared to top privates. I think using SAT is not the best way to evaluate students but most on CC view high SAT scores as a requirement to be seen as top students... besides SAT most people really couldn't find any reason not to think of a Berkeley student as a top student. Also Berkeley admits some community college transfers which dilute the student population somewhat.......but then again I've been extremely impressed with many of the transfer at my dorm. The fact is that those transfers usually aren't HYP quality.</p>

79

<p>keshira, many classes at public universities are very challenging. I know that I struggled mightly freshman year at OSU and went on to earn a PhD at Cornell-Engineering. More recently a friends son who is now in med school attended JHU as an undergrad pulling down a 4.0 gpa freshman year. He took Physics I(?) that summer at our state flagship and got his first B ever.</p>

80

<p>It is just that the publics can seem so large and overwhelming.</p>