<p>I just don’t think anything other than that sentence supported that idea, which leads me to believe that you just said it for the sake of saying it. Are you going to address anything else I said or just pull apart your weakest point…</p>
<p>I said it because you presented a red herring. Your post brought nothing of substance to the table, might I add; it was just an ill-founded attack against Tom’s post.</p>
<p>It may just be that they are being taught and influenced by leftist college professors and are ready to suck in everything they say. i have never heard of a conservative professor.</p>
<p>calibabe, I’ll bite.</p>
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<p>I assume you are a college student, yes? If so, have you talked to your peers lately? How can you possibly say they they are all “thinking” in the manner intended by the post to which you responded? I certainly would never think to say that college students are a “thinking” bunch. Take people who have not studied advanced economics or what have you – most I know would voluntarily recuse themselves on the basis of lack of qualification, or at least speak on opinion versus fact (e.g. setting pricing floors/ceilings is objectively bad in an economic sense). Those that don’t aren’t necessary thinking, and certainly they are not necessarily NOT thinking. On the other hand, the mere state of being a college student means nothing.</p>
<p>I am a college student, yes. I have talked to other students, admittedly very little, but I do think that they are mostly at least somewhat intelligent. The manner in which I responded didn’t exactly suggest that they were all future world leaders or anything, merely that their opinions counted in the greater view of things. I don’t think people need a degree in something to have an opinion about it. Baelor, I’m not sure what youre trying to say, and vanagandr, I feel as though you should look at what Tom is saying before you accuse me of ill-founded attacks. However, to both of you, I think it is really a matter of opinion, in which both sides of the argument will just get angry and never be convinced, even with concrete evidence, to change their opinions. </p>
<p>I consider myself neither liberal nor conservative, for I feel that choosing one side over the other would leave out major political points that I feel are important. </p>
<p>Also, I doubt anyone can say they have never judged anything based solely on opinion and not on fact, although this matters not, considering the US is a democracy, and not everyone, including college students and “mature” adults, have the time or will to find the facts.</p>
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<p>You are not sure what Baelor is trying to say, having attacked Baelor for what he has said. </p>
<p>I reiterate: thinking people indeed! There is a reason I consider California a no-go zone.</p>
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<p>Which is not the meaning that TomServo was using, if I read his post correctly. So you use a different definition than he, then attack him for using that same definition. Sort of like setting up a straw man. And I disagree with your definition as well, by the way.</p>
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<p>That’s true. I don’t need to have a degree in, let’s say, petroleum engineering to have opinions about how the machines work. That doesn’t mean they are worth anything. I believe, given my own experience (and nothing I have seen would form more concrete evidence, although I am always open to new facts), that college students’ opinions are generally not the product of knowledge or thought based on knowledge, but rather preconceptions. This holds true for the general population as well. But nothing about being a college student implies qualification, or so I have experienced.</p>
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<p>You’re right, the democratic system we have is hugely problematic. Next?</p>
<p>@Vanagandr: Hey! I have met one person from California who has very thought-out opinions!</p>
<p>California is a no- go zone? Because of what one person has said? Wow… Grow up, honestly. Also, I didn’t “attack” what he/she said at all… If you think having a conversation is an attack then maybe you should move to a different thread. And speaking of bringing nothing of substance to the table…</p>
<p>So move to a country where only highly educated, opinionated people, like yourself, have a say in what goes on. Maybe then you can stop *****ing about democracy. But here, in the USA, that is, unfortunately, the system we run on. Stupid, uneducated college kids DO have a say in what goes on… And probably a better say than some people who don’t go to college so PLEASE get over yourself.</p>
<p>I’m gay and lower middle class (or upper lower class) income, from a VERY young age I couldn’t understand the reason for racism. I remember when I was like 5 watching the Rugrats and Suzie moved in across the street and this was supposed to be a big deal because an African-American character was going to become prominant in the series or something. But she was just another person, at that age I didn’t understand why anybody would make a distinction. Then I went through schooling, and found myself regularly growling under my breath while reading about the abuses of… every single minority group, ever, in the last 200+ years of America’s existence. </p>
<p>When I was 14 I used to have a “3 levels of ‘gay’-ness” because I was uneducated about the issue. Suffice it to say within 3 years of THAT when I realized my own sexuality and accepted it.</p>
<p>To summarize: I’m liberal because I believe in the tenets of liberalism. I vehemently despise the social conservatives because they’re no better than the Southern Democrats that wanted to keep slavery and later, discrimination, legal. I believe that while I myself lean more towards being pro-life, I also lack the necessary organs to give birth to a baby so it’s really not my decision or any of my business (also, I screamed like a ***** when I had a kidney stone last year). While I despise many criminals who commit attrocities, I’m not too fond of capital punishment. I have no problem with illegal immigration both for social reasons and because a Philosophy professor pointed out a large truth to my class two semesters ago that explains the immigration debate in economic terms and makes absolute sense. I dislike war and I find most of the people on the Conservative side (ie: Palin, Beck, Hannity, O’Riley, Limbaugh, Bush, and James Dobson) to be absolute buffoons (and in the case of Palin, Bush, and Dobson, potentially dangerous). </p>
<p>You seem to think that people are liberal because they’re uneducated in the real world, I would posit that liberals want to achieve an ideal world and conservatives are stuck in a “Leave It To Beaver” 1950s past that never really existed in the first place. If liberals aren’t living in the real world, then neither are conservatives, they’re just living in their own world on the OTHER end of the spectrum. It’s really offensive that you seem to think you have a monopoly on the “real world” and can then make blanket claims that all college students live in some fantasy-land where they don’t have to work and have everything handed to them. I bet I could debate you right here in this forum and knock down any argument you put up using logical, reasonable solutions, the kind you would learn from those colleges you seem to so despise. </p>
<p>Your move, OP</p>
<p>Today’s “liberals” have little to do with philosophical liberalism and more to do with gaining political power and winning elections.</p>
<p>I can’t bear to call them “Left” as I find it insulting to the past Left who actually had values.</p>
<p>Such unwarranted anger, calibabe. You are debunking points that I never made – I did not speak about moving elsewhere. I did not claim I was educated or opinionated. I did not speak about restricting the vote. So why post what you did? More importantly, why post something totally irrelevant to the OP? I have nothing to get over, but clearly something touched a nerve. I would get it checked out.</p>
<p>Furthermore, nothing in your last diatribe was actually in disagreement with the claim about college students and thinking that was originally made.</p>
<p>I don’t think people who are opinionated have to say they are–it is just implied. I’m not angry, I just feel sorry for you. Also, I wasn’t the first one to post something irrelevant to the original post, I’m merely responding to your irritated, self-righteous complaints about democracy. And I’m sorry you feel that way.</p>
<p>Also, you did not “speak of moving elsewhere”… That was my suggestion; I think it would greatly improve your happiness and sanity.</p>
<p>I’ve been socially conservative my whole life and a Republican ever since I began following politics. My parents were both registered Democrats but were also socially conservative and for the most part voted Republican since Reagan.</p>
<p>I was a Poli Sci major and most of my classmates were liberal, as were many of my friends, although their opinions wavered a great deal on issues like gay marriage, gun control, abortion, ect.</p>
<p>Just in the short span since graduation, there has been an obivious shift in my peer group from liberal to conservative. As you get older, being a conservative makes much more sense. Your responsibilities increase and your committment to social causes (abortion, gun control) decreases. Instead of worrying about social issues, you become much more concerned about issues that you never cared about in college, because they had no impact on your life.</p>
<p>For example, in college the major political issues are the same across the board, gay-married, abortion, legalized marijuana, gun control, ect.</p>
<p>Once you leave college, those things really aren’t important any longer. Instead you are concerned about local property taxes, financial markets, federal taxes, and retirement. These typically are never “hot” issues on college campuses, I mean when was the last time you saw college students get into a heated debate over state pension funds?</p>
<p>My friends who were once “liberal” are now “conservative”, at least when it comes to fiscal matters and entitlements. It easy to say, “give more entitlements” or “provide more social services” now, when you aren’t really earning money, pay debt or provide for a family. However, when those responsibilities to come into your life (mortgage, health care, having children), the idea of having more money taken out of your paycheck to support people who aren’t your family is a jagged pill to swallow.</p>
<p>For example, I’m currently paying big into SSI. Every two-weeks the federal government takes a big chunk out of my salary to pay for Social Security. Knowing that I am actively paying into a system that will be bankrupt by the time I qualify for it disgusts me. </p>
<p>Another reality that people come to observe post-college is the inefficiency of government. As you get older, your interaction with the government increases, mainly via local and state governments, but also with federal agencies. As this happens you really start seeing how inefficient and wasteful government is, and it sickens you to know you are paying them all that tax money just to throw it down a hole. After awhile, you think, “Wow…government is so inefficient, the last thing we need to more of it.” You speak with friends and co-workers and you hear the same horror stories about disorganization, waste and abuse and eventually you just understand that your money is better off in your own pocket than they hands of government.</p>
<p>It also becomes increasingly annoying when people who don’t work, don’t pay taxes and feed the system have an equal say in the voting booth. It’s becoming far to easy for a politician just to run on a platform and hand-outs because he knows it will bring home a victory, it’s essentially buying votes. Free this, free that, more of this, more of that…which all sounds great to a tax recipient, but to tax payers it’s just nauseating. Eventually you adopt the mind-set, “Wait…enough of the free rides, my family comes first, let me keep my money and do what’s best for them.”</p>
<p>There are dozens of example, but the reality is that once you are an adult, being a liberal is counter-productive to yourself.</p>
<p>Bigeastbeast wins, thread over</p>
<p>Most college students are idealistic.</p>
<p>The older you get, the more realistic you become.</p>
<p>FWIW, the smartest people will realize that both political parties are seriously flawed (at the extremes).</p>
<p>The majority of the population ends up being centrist, with slightly right leanings. </p>
<p>Taxes and government spending (it’s a very broad category) tend to become the dominant topic later in life. If you don’t make very much money, you really don’t care how much tax is taken out (you get most of it back anyway). You do love the entitlements when you don’t make much money, as it makes life a little easier.</p>
<p>I’ve grown to hate all aspects of government. It’s rather flawed from top to bottom. I’m not saying we don’t need government (we do), but it has become an abused entity, run by folks that care only about themselves and their good buddies. Gov’t doesn’t care about the little guy, or the small business.</p>
<p>I’ve run my own small business for the past 8 years. Due to good economic times, I made quite a bit of money (for a 2 to 3 year period). That money put me into a upper level tax bracket, where I paid a tremendous amount in taxes. I also paid a tremendous amount of taxes for my small business too. Even though I’m just one guy, I got the luxury of paying individual and corporate taxes!! </p>
<p>Well, in that short period of time I probably paid close to $250K in taxes. </p>
<p>Fast forward a few years and some government entities decide to enact significant regulatory changes on my business, restricting my ability to perform work with clients, and restricting my ability to charge a customary fee. My income has dropped over 90% since peak times.</p>
<p>Is the government there to help a little guy like me out? No</p>
<p>Can I go back and collect a portion of that $250K in taxes I paid to the system when I was doing well, now that I’m not doing so well? No</p>
<p>I don’t rely on the system, so I took matters into my own hands. That finds me back in college in my early 30’s trying to reinvent myself for a different career. I can honestly say the government and their programs/regulations ruined my first career…and they have been nowhere to be found to help me establish a new career…even though I’ve paid them hundreds of thousands of dollars over the years.</p>
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<p>Not arguing, just pointing that out.</p>
<p>BIGeastBEAST, I agree with everything you said except for this:
It is absolutely imperative that everyone has the right to vote, no matter whether they pay taxes or not. The instant their right to vote is taken away, or even just diminished, we lose our democracy. Once one group’s right to vote is taken away, what’s to stop the government from doing that again to another group? Once you give the power to strip away voting rights to the government, the government isn’t going to be satisfied with just that sole group. Anyone who opposes the viewpoint of those in power will lose their right to vote. It may be a slow process at first, but eventually those in power will gain enough momentum to establish an authoritarian state. All because they had the power to let the voices of the people not be heard.</p>
<p>Because college students have time to think through the way they feel about certain issues. Like Churchill said they have the heart to care about certain issues. And because they are young they are still just naive enough to believe that the fact that they care about said issues will matter. </p>
<p>They’re the reason why, from time to time, we do end up with social progress in this country.</p>