I believe the statistic is that 70% of pre-meds never make it into med school.
@wis75: “Those who mare interested in being a physician for the work done will not want the other fields.”
Depends on the other fields.
Some of them are pretty different while podiatry probably could have been a MD specialization if not for the way history developed.
But I’m asking now someone who didn’t get in to a (allopathic) med school can end up as a (low-paying) lab tech (or bio tutor, as someone on CC mentioned about friends’ kids) if there are so many other positions between the two extremes.
No one knows how many tens and tens of thousands of eager young minds show up on campus on first day as premed and then for whatever reason change their minds. But in last few cycles, of those who made it through the gauntlet and actually get to the point of applying, the number is right around 60% fail to start anywhere (I’m referring to MD only).
@simba9 Sounds like my MIL must’ve taught additional classes there.
We have family friends . . . in the next generation, one cousin went MD (and is still in residency) and other cousin went P.A. route. PA kid has a great job making very good money and has been working a couple years already. MD kid is doing well, too, but wow it takes so much longer and the debt can be daunting.
Why an MD instead of a DO? MDs are far more likely to get a residency in a prestigious/lucrative specialty and, worse case, are more likely to match than DOs. Dentistry? I doubt kids know how lucrative* it is relative to its workload and it lacks the social cachet that comes from adding a M.D. after your name. Other fields (e.g. podiatry or physician assistants) are something kids probably don’t know much about.
*specifically, orthodontics appears to be a license to print money.
There are many many reasons. As far as competitiveness for admission there is no comparison between any of the fields listed. High achieving students are naturally drawn to the most competitive field. Also many many students find working only in the mouth or on the feet unappealing. The person who posted that physical therapy admissions is comparable to regular US medical schools is very incorrect. It’s light years different as is dental school and DO school. Vet school is competitive but unfortunately the job market for vets is dismal at best so the best students in the know avoid it. Coming from a DO school the competitive residencies are next to impossible to be admitted such as Derm or Ophthalmology. Even from US medical schools it’s tough. It’s sort of like asking why top athletes want to play on the best teams in the major leagues. It’s the nature of high end alpha people.
@SAY: That may be the case (from a prestige, not necessarily monetary, perspective), but if you’re not getting in to an allopathic med school or your only options are in the Caribbean, you’re already not among the best of the best. So how does someone go from pre-med to bio tutor when there are so many allied health and other health fields?
For monetary oral surgery is hard to beat but very very few young people want to be confined to the mouth. Honestly they think it’s gross. I suggested it to three of my kids but there was zero interest even though we had a friend that offered to take them in. There are many health fields but the prime positions are almost all filled by M.D.s It’s just the way it is.
You’re missing a big qualifier there. American MDs are more likely to get a residency in a prestigious/lucrative specialty and, worse case, are more likely to match than DOs. I don’t know if I’d say far. Overall match numbers are basically 95% vs. 85%. DOs are far more likely to get a residency in a prestigious/lucrative specialty and, worse case, are more likely to match than foreign MDs (e.g. Caribbean). There you’re talking 85% vs. 45-55%.
Several of my MPH friends were former pre-meds. Epidemiology seemed to attract the most.
Brown I’m not sure where you get your information but it is totally incorrect. First of all there is absolutely no comparison between the the MD and DO schools. All the top schools and virtually every significant physician in US history was went to an allopathic school. This is not to say that DO’s are poorly trained or incompetent but just that the DO schools are almost entirely filled with students who did not gain admittance to the MD schools. I personally trained at 4 of the finest medical centers in the US and I never met a single DO at any of these schools which included an Ivy, Ivy equivalent, and the top clinic in the world. It is true that they are merging the residences in a few years but I can guarantee you that it you went through the roster of residents in the top twenty medical centers in the more competitive residencies they will be filled almost entirely with MD’s. This is just a fact. You will find some DO’s in the less competitive primary care fields. The same is true if you look at the feeder schools to the top medical schools. The top 20-30 schools dominate the successful applicants to these schools. I would agree that DO’s probably fare better than foreign trained doctors who are looked down upon in the US.
https://schools.studentdoctor.net/schools//1
https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-medical-schools/research-rankings
I get my information from the National Resident Matching Program.
I’m mostly playing semantics as to what is “far” ahead. Yes, unquestionably an American MD is at an advantage over a DO. On the other hand, a DO is unquestionably at an advantage over a foreign trained MD. Both of these institutions are filled almost exclusively with people who couldn’t get in to US allopathic schools. In that sense, DO has gotten worse. Allopathic medicine has been steadily moving towards “more holistic medicine” and osteopathic medicine has basically only kept OMM as part of the curriculum out of tradition. There used to be a time where one could conceivably say that allopathic training is not in line with the kind of physician one wants to be and that DO would be better. That time is essentially gone. DO has basically fully cemented itself as “lower tier MD” (although I’d venture the top 5 DO schools have better students than several MD schools).
Your evidence is rather uncompelling in terms of changing my real point - which maybe got overshadowed by my semantics, which is that DOs have better career prospects than foreign trained MDs.
The gap between MD and DO training has been narrowing. Of course if you look at the history of medicine you’re going to only find allopathic physicians and that’s because the two programs specifically tried to be different from each other. The fact that you wrote (emphasis mine) “will be filled almost entirely with MD’s.” probably represents progress. Go back 20 years and I bet they are filled exclusively with MDs, not “almost entirely.” You may not have encountered DOs because of your age, but the tides are changing and you’re seeing more DOs in more competitive programs than before and it’s only trending up for them.
Not really sure what the first link is supposed to tell me. The SDN ranks are based entirely on evaluations from SDN users. Literally anyone can submit a rating/review about any schools on SDN.
I’m not even sure if the DO schools participate in the USNWR research rankings, and if they did, of course they would be at the bottom. NIH-funded research is practically antithetical to their mission statement and that’s the largest or 2nd largest component of the ranking. Did you also know that the “NIH dollars” a medical school has is based entirely on whatever facilities the medical school wants to claim as “part of the school?” Do you think the PIs at Cornell in Ithaca are really affecting the education of the med students at Weill in NYC?
The top 20-30 undergrads dominate the medical schools because the top 20-30 undergrads corral all the top students coming out of high school. Similarly to above, I bet if you look at the undergrads at HMS and JHU now and compare that to the class list from 20 years ago, you’re going to see a lot more schools outside the top 20-30 now than then.
This last post seems reasonably correct but this thread really has nothing to do with foreign trained doctors. The discussion at hand was about why the best students virtually always choose to attend MD Schools if they get accepted. Now it’s true I trained a couple three decades ago but for the past 15 years I was involved in managing a business that employed hundreds of highly compensated specialists on the west coast. I do not recall ever hiring a DO though it is possible one or two existed. Below I have listed the directory of UCSD. A good but not top ten or fifteen program. Please take the time to browse through it. Virtually all MD’s in 2017. I don’t want to suggest I’m against DO’s as there are many fine DO’s out there giving good care. But the question asked was why current students fixate on allopathic schools. This list shows you the reason along with the fact that most of the best students end up going to these schools. The best plan for the DO schools would be to have the better ones join the allopathic schools and then close the weaker ones. I do agree with you that DO schools no longer serve any function except as a place for the rejected MD students to matriculate.
I keep hearing we have too many medical specialists and too few primary care physicians in the US, so it seems crazy to shut down osteopathic medical schools if they produce so many primary care doctors.
Personally, as long as my doctor has passed all the licensing exams, I don’t much care about where they went to school.
It’s very alarming in our state that so many of our physicians (mostly MDs) are over 65, with not nearly enough younger physicians to replace them. As it is, I have a lung specialist in CA. My internist is 68, as is his partner. My internist cannot find an internist for his wife! We are dreading the day when my internist and his partner close their practice, as they see a HUGE percentage of folks in our state and many of us have been seeing them for decades.
simba9 your statements are completely wrong. There is a large shortage of specialists in the US that is going to get worse over the next 20 years. Today college and medical school combined take so long and cost to much that no sane person can afford to become a primary care physician. Its not about greed the math just doesn’t work. A young doctor with 300-500k in debt simply can not choose a profession where the income is 150-175k. In the US primary care is going to be mostly delivered by nurse practitioners and fewer and fewer MD’s or DO’s. Keep in mind that the typical fireman with nothing more than a HS education averages about 150k year in total compensation and retires at 50. Doctors are just responding to the forces that shape modern society.
I can see the interest in being a physician, as there are many different types, but I cannot understand wanting to be a dentist, although they make very good money. Human mouths are really nasty!
@SAY while the OP might not have had foreign MDs in mind, the fixation on allopathic training is precisely the reason why the foreign medical schools are so dangerous. There are so many students who think that because yes, american MDs are at an absolutely appreciable advantage over DOs, that that extends to the Caribbean and other countries. They think that by going to SGU or Ross instead of PCOM or Touro they are giving themselves a leg up because they’ll have an MD instead of a DO after their name. That is foolish and a great way to wind up $300k in debt with no marketable skills. The DO route is superior to that and that is where fixation on allopathic training can be dangerous and not evidence based (the opposite of being fixated on american allopathic training over osteopathic).
Another reason why you see so few DOs is because there are only ~25 DO schools in the world. There’s ~140 allopathic schools in the USA plus all the ones elsewhere.
ubcalumnus what are you talking about? I most certainly did not cherry pick unless you consider every major city cherry picking. Yes getting the jobs is hard because it is such outrageous overpayment. Go look at SF, San Diego, LA, San Jose, NYC, Chicago,Philly, etc etc. This is not my opinion and is common knowledge and easily checked.