<p>“So for a student who NEEDS financial aid, it is sometimes better to take a gap year, and apply as an incoming freshman to schools where merit or need based aid is more likely to be offered.”</p>
<p>This idea tends to be overexaggerated greatly on these boards. Sure it may lower your costs but rarely will lead to 4 years at a state university being cheaper than 2 years at CC and then transfer.</p>
<p>You also need to take into account kids who post here are higher stats then most with AP/IB credits. </p>
<p>Some CC do not have enough classes for these kids to take. Our CC added STEM program a few years ago. Even with this, I believe Math goes up to Calc III. Great for the vast majority of students; not great for a kid with AP Calc. </p>
<p>DH earned his AA from our CC. It is a beautiful campus, wonderful instructors and study abroad options. But it just would not be a good option for my oldest kid.</p>
<p>The biggest expense we have seen in our CC is not the tuition credit rate, but the fee rate. Each credit hour has Technology fees plus many course have extra fees. I frequently took classes until I had my last child. When I was looking for a summer class for my son last year I felt like I needed a spreadsheet just to help figure out the cost with each fee type.</p>
<p>The entire existence of CC is in part based on the aversion to community college/local commuter state schools. The idea behind “college search and selection” (excluding the small community colleges subsection) or “college admissions” suggests that posters want choices beyond their local public. So many students and parents that post on these boards come in with a bias against those commuter schools and are likely to favor gap years so as to ensure that a student can leave with what they deem to be an ideal college experience (read residential four year), even if the local CC would cost substantially less than a full tuition scholarship.</p>
<p>If my child were closed out everywhere, I’d likely suggest a gap year. I’d do this for a few reasons.</p>
<p>1) For me, living away from home in a dorm, was a wonderful, transformative experience. 22 years post graduation, I still count my college roommates among my closest friends. I want my child to have that same experience, even if he has to wait a year for it and apply more broadly. </p>
<p>2) I think gap years are a great idea anyway. Whether a student tries working for a year, or volunteering, or travelling, I think it puts them in a more adult role, and lets them learn about themselves. I’d encourage a gap year regardless of admissions status, but for a high stat kid who couldn’t navigate the admissions process, I think the experiential learning of a gap year can be wonderful. </p>
<p>3) I think the CC to 4 year school option is a well known path. For my own kid, I’d probably suggest it too as something to explore, but for someone else’s kid I imagine that they’re getting that advice from their GC.</p>
<p>I’ve posted about this on another thread in the past. The quality of community colleges is highly variable by region. Our local community colleges are not particularly academic in focus. They primarily serve adults retraining for a technical career or high school students who can’t adjust well to regular high school. A high stats kid who messed up the application process won’t actually find enough courses to take for two years at our local CCs.</p>
<p>ucbalumnus -</p>
<p>I think you and are basically in agreement on this issue. There are high stats kids for whom waiting and reapplying makes sense - especially after they have woken up and smelled the coffee so to speak about the money issue. However for most students whose families can more or less scrape the money together and who don’t have the stats that will get them big money, CC to state U is the affordable route. Getting the kids who post here to see that as a viable option is the challenge. If they would pay attention to the whole “Find and love thy safety” bit, they would know just how lovable their own CC is.</p>
<p>Though I usually include any local state options, and ccs are in that group, the reason, I also mention a gap year, is because many families and students go through this whole college app, financial aid and scholarship route with blinders on. They are amateurs and virgins. They make a lot of mistakes some that could be eliminated next time around, become aware of a lot of options they did not know existed the first time and missed the deadlines and opportunities. Taking a good strong gap year with some interesting highlghts and also earning some more money, targeting some programs and scholarships, can truly benefit such students. </p>
<p>Going the community college route greatly reduces chances for merit, financial aid and even admissions to a lot of schools simply because the odds are much, much less in a lot cases for transfer students. It’s really a matter of statistics there. It’s not as though CC is always a much better deal either as some of them are not so inexpensive when transportation costs are taken into account. Too often courses are not readily available there or not of the quality they need to be to transition into an upper level university. So that when one does make the transfer for the 4 year degree, some courses may have to be retaken and/or the student is not properly prepared for the next step. </p>
<p>Also, not all CCs have good transfer/transition services much less agreements with any 4 year school. And if there is not a 4 year school within commutable distance, then the student still has to come up with room and board plus the costs of such college, and sometimes, it will take 3 years at that school to get the courses needed for a degree, in fact, more often then not. </p>
<p>So even as I do bring up the CC option, I am aware of its drawbacks. I have a special soapbox for CCs as that is where I feel federal/state funds and focus needs to be along with the state schools. But right now, the CC option has drawbacks so that a student who has a good chance of getting into an affordable 4 year school, who simply did not do things the optimal way the first time around might want to give that another go. If that doesn’t work out, the CC route is still there to take.</p>
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<p>Could not agree more. Where we live, the parents who are ashamed that their kids have not achieved college admission at the desired level are quick to call for a gap year…but they would never be happy with our local CC, even though it is very good.</p>
<p>I think “aversion” is too strong of a word. There are other options out there and they should certainly be explored. For reasons that I have given, there is reason for “aversion” to ccs, but the existence of CC is to explain what it involves to go beyond the CC option. I can walk into the office of any number of CCs in this area and be able to get courses for the fall right now. Not so wit other schools where getting into programs involve planning and paperwork beyond that. Much more complicated. So the cc options is one that is much more readily available most of the time and does not require the long term planning.</p>
<p>I think there are other good reasons for preferring to start college as a freshman at the school from which you will graduate. There are social reasons–many friend groups will form freshman year. Also, if extracurriculars are important, it may be difficult to get heavily involved in some of them if you don’t start freshman year. Academically, even if the CC grades all transfer, there can be issues with major sequences and prereqs.</p>
<p>You need to consider why a gap year or cc is on the table. If you think the student isn’t ready for the independence of being in college away from home, he can screw up at cc just as badly. My high SAT/high GPA/11 AP course son managed to land himself on academic probation at community college…when you lie and act like you’re going to class, but don’t actually go to class, you tend to fail the class, whether it’s at a 4 year university or a community college. If a student is immature/not ready to go away to school, he may likewise not be ready for cc.</p>
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<p>While all things may be possible, not all things may be profitable.</p>
<p>The CC’s course in Advanced Basked Weaving may “transfer”, but it may not be helpful (apply towards the classes needed for graduation). This is a general problem for all transfer students, but particularly a problem for transfer students from a community college.</p>
<p>In general, if you are going to take classes, and then transfer, the “safest” classes to take are “core” classes in basic math, writing, and science, that are likely to be a required class towards graduation. You are best off loooking at where you want to transfer to, and seeing what those degree requirements are. Then pick classes at the CC that can be applied to the graduation requirements.</p>
<p>There was a local story a few years ago about someone taking 2 years of classes at a CC and then transferring. She took classes related to the profession she wanted, but none were useful towards graduation. 2 years of college down the tubes.</p>
<p>Re: #32</p>
<p>That is why there are pre-made articulation agreements like those shown at [Welcome</a> to ASSIST](<a href=“http://www.assist.org%5DWelcome”>http://www.assist.org) to show CC students what they need to take for their majors at their transfer target schools.</p>
<p>^^^ In Maryland, the State Higher Ed Commission maintains a database that indicates which CC courses from which CC will transfer as what (or not transfer at all) into each and every one of the 4-year institutions here. Yup, you can know instantly if what you are taking will give you credit, even at JHU.</p>
<p>Our D communicated often with the U she wanted to attend to be sure her courses would be accepted when she transferred. They accepted all except one–they didn’t like online classes and it was her only online course. We feel that her keeping on touch with target U helped with her transfer app and pushed her app from wait list to spring admit. </p>
<p>Many Us will work with students interesting in transferring in. My nephew’s GF was able to transfer from St. Mary’s to Occidental and still graduate Pre-med in 4 years with FAid.</p>
<p>I live in an area where there are so many low cost state and cc alternatives that are very good, that they should get serious consideration. A lot of them are not slam dunks for admissions either. I used to live somewhere that had the most beautiful new CC facility that offered dog poop in terms of courses. You could spend 5 years there trying to get enough credits to be a junior. You really had to learn the system and get downright nasty and go to branch campuses as far as 45 minutes away to get some basic solid LA courses. On paper they looked good, until you tried to sign up for anything. So to say YMMV is really an understatement. I’d love to see all states have the accessibility to good quality CC courses that would have databases like Maryland’s–that I don’t think we have in NY. </p>
<p>I will say, however, that my kids got full credit for some CC summer courses here at even top 25 universities. But, again, this is here.</p>
<p>Happymom, my DH is from the Eastern Shore of MD and the only game in town there for some of the backwater towns there seems to be Chesapeake College which is sometimes over an hour away for students in terms of commute with no mass transit options. It can be tough for someone living out there on Hoopers Island and other such locales to get an inexpensive college education commuting.</p>
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<p>Which reminded me of another point… I looked at a few random schools, and mostly 1st year core classes transferred. It reminded me of the problem of some degrees, like business, that has sequence of classes that can take a long time to get through. First accounting, then finance & a few other classes, and then you can take upper level classes. If you can’t get through the specialized intro sequence, then when you transfer to the 4 year college, you may have 2 years worth of credit, but still need to go for 3 more years just to fit in all the classes in the proper sequence.</p>
<p>Some degrees require you to hit the ground running to get through in 4 years, and pad your schedule in the soph/jr years with your distribution classes.</p>
<p>"Some degrees require you to hit the ground running to get through in 4 years, and pad your schedule in the soph/jr years with your distribution classes. "</p>
<p>Most don’t. I’d say that for most majors its best to know what your going to be majoring in by the beg of your 2nd year. </p>
<p>Esp. business majors, sure there are some courses you have to take in sequence (can’t take intermediate accounting before you take intro to accounting)… but you definitely have room to explore before you start. Science majors may be different. </p>
<p>Also, most transfer students take courses that transfer (even in-sequence courses) - ex: Intro to Accounting I & II at community college and then Managerial and Intermediate accounting at 4 year university. </p>
<p>So I don’t get your point at all - this is a negative againts “degrees require you to hit the ground running to get through in 4 years” moreso than against community colleges.</p>
<p>The ‘community college to top 4-year’ concept is grossly oversold. In California the top CC for transfers to ‘top’ 4-year schools is Moorpark College. MCC has an average enrollment of about 15,000 students and here is their transfer brag sheet:</p>
<p>[Transfer</a> Statistics - Services for Students - Moorpark College](<a href=“http://www.moorparkcollege.edu/services_for_students/transfer_center/Transfer_Statistics.shtml]Transfer”>Transfer Statistics | Moorpark College)</p>
<p>Slice the numbers up anyway you would like but the fact remains that a student entering Moorpark CC has very VERY low odds of transferring to a top 4-year. Keep in mind this is the top transfer CC in California and also keep in mind that California CC’s are mandated by the 1960 CA Master Plan to provide a high likelihood of transfer.</p>
<p>As you can tell I am NOT a fan of the CC fairytale that gets sold to our kids every year. CC’s are full of unmotivated slackers and it’s far easier for a good student to be drawn into that then to pound out the transfer classes and fight through the other 14,999 kids to find a home at a good 4-year.</p>
<p>Yes, I now you know someone who has made this work but for every victory there are 15 stunted academic careers. The reality is that the CC to 4-year path is a high risk plan at best.</p>
<p>Best Regards,
Wheaty</p>
<p>Wheaty,</p>
<p>I’m not sure those statistics are as awful as they first look. 1785 students, or 12%. So 25% make it in 2 years. If you figure in the people who came back to take a couple of courses with no intention of getting a degree, such as teachers who need a course or 2 to keep up certification, or the senior who decides they want to learn Italian (my mom), or the person who signs up for aqua aerobics only; plus you figure in the people who came in looking for a 2 year degree; plus you figure in the people who are going very part time because they have other commitments, there will be a lot of people who never intended to transfer in the first place. </p>
<p>I still think it makes sense to look at 4 year schools first, and that gap years are a great idea, but I do think CC to a 4 year school is a realistic option for certain kids.</p>