Why Do UCs Prefer Community College Transfers?

Transfer Students
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Secondly, I don't even propose that you take those waivers at the moment that you arrive at Berkeley. You can take them during any semester. It would just be a condition of graduation. Hence, you would have plenty of time to prep.

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<p>During upper division, transferred students will be taking almost the same classes, and thus the same workload, as upper division freshman admits. Any preparation for the waiver exams during this time will be addition workload that will detract from the time spent studying upper division courses. This will put a transfer student at a disadvantage as compared to their freshman admits counterparts. </p>

<p>What your advocating is that the rigorously unfair weeding of freshman admits be offsetted by the unfair additional workload placed upon upper division transfer students. I don't know about most people but I would think they'll much rather undergo unnessary and unfair rigor during lower division than during upper division because attaing a high gpa during upper division (and thus demonstrating to potential employers that we understand the specialized upper division major coursework) is much more important. That is, the unfairness for upper division transfer students who need to take the waiver exams far outweight the unfairness that freshman admits encounter during lower division.</p>

<p>I think that any attempt to fairly correct the unfairness that freshman admits encounter during lower division should be done so during the transfer students' lower division. How can this be done? I don't know as of now.</p>

<p>Perhaps the best course of action should be to petition for UCB to abolish weeding, with both freshman admits and transfer students participating in the process. This is time better spent than to try and implement the waiver exam proposal of yours, which with its unfairness to transfer students during upper division, would require even more time to correct it it is enacted.</p>

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Obviously if freshman admits didn't have to undergo weeders, then they would have higher GPA's and more of them would graduate on time. After all, it is precisely the weeders that tend to hand out bad grades and force people to repeat them (hence, delaying their graduation)

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<p>Transfer students are delayed graduation as well. For EECS, there are anywhere from 4-6 lower division prereqs that aren't offered at a CCC. Thus a transfer students who transfers to UCB after 2 years of college will still be considered lower division for an addition semester or two. That's a delay in graduation of half to one schoolyear.</p>

<p>As for the gpa, freshman admits and transfer students upper division will have fair major gpa. For cumulative gpa, however, I agree that under the current system freshmans admits will be at a disadvantaged. But again, any proposal to fairly correct this unfairness should apply to lower division transfer students only. This way, the transfer student's gpa will be affected accordingly during lower division while the major gpa remains unaffected by the proposal. But how can this be done? Again, I don't know.</p>

<p>I'm sure we both agree that the best course of action would be to get UCB to scrap the weeder courses as you said. It seems that the proposal you are pushing is not an honest solution to the unfairness that freshman admits have. Instead, it seems like a retaliation proposal to punish transfer students because of the anti-transfer student sentiment that you harbor.</p>

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<p>It just hit me. The appropiate waiver exam should be administered to the transfer students at the end of each quarter or semester (during lower division). Have these exams available at the testing center. Yes? This way students can take the exams at the end of each course in the same manner as the the UCB freshman admits take them. The results of these waiver exams can be incorporated into the student's grade for the course, and thus the student's gpa. Perhaps, or not, this gpa can be separate from the CCC gpa. This gpa can then go into effect upon admission to UCB (or any other UC depending on the gpa?) whereas the CCC gpa can be used solely for determining admission selection.</p>

123

<p>"Again, it all gets down to a matter of fairness. Freshman admits have to take weeders. Transfers don't have to. That's a problem.</p>

<p>I'm not going to respond to every post. The point your trying to get across is continuing students have taken classes with a rigorous grading structure where as CC students have taken no classes where a high percentage of students receive sub-standard grades. Therefore, continuing students at Berkeley who have survived weeder courses are the cream of the crop, unlike the transfers who don't belong (because schools have no obligation to accept them) and need to, on top of their grades, prove they know what their grades and graduation rates already show; all this just so they have as tough a time as the freshman admits (because they don’t already).</p>

<p>It’s nonsense. But you’ll always think that’s so and there is really nothing I can do to persuade you otherwise. Thankfully, admissions doesn’t prescribe to the same logic.</p>

<p>“Maybe transfer students really are just as good as the continuing students. But how would anybody really know?”</p>

<p>This is not a serious question, is it? The reason schools take transfers is not to change the perceptions of continuing students or give poor ole’ sub-standard transfer students the opportunity to get a degree from a top university, the only reason transfers are there is because they have already proved they are bright and motivated and they present an excellent opportunity for the university to enrich it’s ranks. Pure self-interest. </p>

<p>The narcissism in subjective educational quality differences held by continuing students, who have maybe taken 1 course at a CC in the summer to complete a foreign language requirement, is irrelevant. Results are all that matter. This issue of fairness is pointless, as you would be hard pressed to find a solution to a nonexistent problem. Fair (within the constructs of this debate) is hard to quantify and even harder to effectively advocate.</p>

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<p>I just thought of this as I was reading EE's post.</p>

<p>If Berkeley didn't think the coursework was comparable they wouldn't articulate the course. These articulation agreements are set every year. The simple pesudo-solution would be to not articulate the courses, but as the courses are, for all core respects, equal there is no reason to do such a thing.</p>

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<p>also statistics point out that transfers students do as well as students who have been there since the beginning</p>

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<p>"It just hit me. The appropiate waiver exam should be administered to the transfer students at the end of each quarter or semester (during lower division). Have these exams available at the testing center. Yes? This way students can take the exams at the end of each course in the same manner as the the UCB freshman admits take them. The results of these waiver exams can be incorporated into the student's grade for the course, and thus the student's gpa. Perhaps, or not, this gpa can be separate from the CCC gpa. This gpa can then go into effect upon admission to UCB (or any other UC depending on the gpa?) whereas the CCC gpa can be used solely for determining admission selection."</p>

<p>Sounds like an AP test to me.</p>

<p>But the thing is the courses taken at CC are comparable to those at the UC (weeders and all), if they were not the university would not renew the articulation agreement.</p>

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<p>Yes, the course materials are comparable. But I think Sakky was extremely concerned that freshman admits have lower gpa during lower division because of the curve grading (especially within hard science and engineering) and level of competition, whereas the grading in a CCC is usually on an absolute scale with less competition. I was suggesting that CCC students take the same exams that UCB freshman admits take.</p>

<p>I've heard that science and calculus AP tests are easier than in a CCC.</p>

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<p>"But I think Sakky was extremely concerned that freshman admits have lower gpa during lower division because of the curve grading (especially within hard science and engineering) and level of competition"</p>

<p>He should have said that in the first place if that was his real concern.</p>

<p>But exams won't solve GPA discrepancies unless both parties are given the test, which is not what Sakky advocated.</p>

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<p>Besides, it's clear that community college students have a gpa that is in part from community college--the gpas are not given equal status.</p>

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<p>"I've heard that science and calculus AP tests are easier than in a CCC."</p>

<p>I've taken both and I would have to say that they are too differnet to really be compariable. They test you on the same material but in differnet ways. Is writing a formal essay about a topic then doing a lab idnitfying material more or less difficult than answering some muliple choice questions and doing a quick free-repsonce?</p>

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<p>I'm not sure, but I would imagine that AP tests are more standardized than the tests at ccc's. Perhaps I'm wrong.</p>

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The point your trying to get across is continuing students have taken classes with a rigorous grading structure where as CC students have taken no classes where a high percentage of students receive sub-standard grades. Therefore, continuing students at Berkeley who have survived weeder courses are the cream of the crop, unlike the transfers who don't belong (because schools have no obligation to accept them) and need to, on top of their grades, prove they know what their grades and graduation rates already show; all this just so they have as tough a time as the freshman admits (because they don’t already).

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<p>Straw man.</p>

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But exams won't solve GPA discrepancies unless both parties are given the test, which is not what Sakky advocated.

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<p>I meant to say that after each quarter/semester, CCC students take the same UCB exams as those freshman admits. This is much more reasonable than deferring Sakky's "waiver exams" to upper division.</p>

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I've taken both and I would have to say that they are too differnet to really be compariable. They test you on the same material but in differnet ways. Is writing a formal essay about a topic then doing a lab idnitfying material more or less difficult than answering some muliple choice questions and doing a quick free-repsonce?

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<p>You are describing a lab report. There are also lab exams or instead in computer programming, lab programs. And there are also lecture exams. I've rarely taken any multiple choice exams in physics, chemistry, math and programming. These exams rarely have quick responses, most problems require lots of calculations. It is also not uncommon for the exam to contain only 4-5 problems, with each problem condensing several theories into one fat problem. Miss one completely and your grade will be docked down by a full or more grade. I haven't taken an AP exam before but I imagine that CC exams are more difficult than the AP exam's format.</p>

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<p>"Straw man."</p>

<p>It wasn't a straw man before and it wasn't just then. Unless your going to point out where I misinterpreted his argument, your comments fall hollow.</p>

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<p>"I meant to say that after each quarter/semester, CCC students take the same UCB exams as those freshman admits."</p>

<p>Would these exams simply be copies of finals or midterms UCB freshmen-sophomores usually take? If so, I would still have to object.</p>

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<p>taking tests after every class would be retarded. Imagine taking extra tests for every community college class you had and still being rejected from the schools of your choice.</p>

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<p>Haha. Yes, no "waiver exams" would ever be practically feasible or reasonable.</p>

137

<p>Such dramatic diction.</p>

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where as CC students have taken no classes where a high percentage of students receive sub-standard grades.

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<p>Sakky never claimed this.</p>

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unlike the transfers who don't belong

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<p>Inaccurate for various reasons, especially because of the reaon you give.</p>

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and need to, on top of their grades, prove they know what their grades and graduation rates already show

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<p>He claimed that he suspected transfers and freshmen have equal GPAs and equal graduation rates at least in part because the transfer don't have to take the weeder courses.</p>

<p>There there is all the stuff you left out that I don't feel like enumerating. Read his posts again.</p>

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<p>werwerwetwerrwe</p>

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<p>"Such dramatic diction."</p>

<p>It's a very serious topic, one that's especially close to me.</p>

<p>"Inaccurate for various reasons, especially because of the reaon you give."</p>

<p>Your absolutely right, it is inaccurate. The thing is, it's not my reasoning.</p>

<p>"He claimed that he suspected transfers and freshmen have equal GPAs and equal graduation rates at least in part because the transfer don't have to take the weeder courses."</p>

<p>Among many other things.</p>

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<p>It is serious, fair enough.</p>

<p>Matt, what was inaccurate was your representation of what sakky said; I wasn't considering the accuracy or truthfulness of what he said, but rather if you faithfully represented what he said.</p>