Why Do UCs Prefer Community College Transfers?

Transfer Students
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<p>"Like I said, if the transfers really are just as good as the continuing students, then they should have no problem in passing a set of equivalent exams."</p>

<p>This is sort of the same argument conservatives use against their detractors. You shouldn't worry about wiretaps if your not involved in terrorist activity. Which is not the point at all.</p>

<p>The main thing about this I don't like is, it sounds like a fishing expedition. You don't have any proof that transfers are underperforming nor do you have any proof that these waver exams will solve the problem of workload disparities.</p>

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<p>To take on this issue of HS admit vs transfer admit difficulty:</p>

<p>Lets even go with the erroneous assumption that transfer students are the HS kids that couldn't hack it.</p>

<p>Assuming a HS senior has done well and received 4' on all the AP tests they took that year and was accepted to Berkeley, they use the scores on these tests to skip some basic college level writing and critical thinking courses.</p>

<p>Now a transfer student who, lets say, scored a 1 or 2 on all the AP tests they took, now has to complete the same courses they took in high school on top their general ed and major prep work, plus they must also do a 180 as it relates to thier level of academic interest. Then when they transfer they will need to take a handful of lower division courses (ask any potential transfer in the philosophy major) that didn't matriculate, in essence repeating the same thing they learned in CC. </p>

<p>This is why junior transfers are rarely the same age as continuing transfers. On average the junior transfer is in the 22-25 range, because they spent 3 or more years completing both HS level and college level requirements.</p>

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<p>And if you’re saying these weeder courses teach something substantially different then whats offered anywhere else, then the solution is not weeder bypass exams.</p>

<p>The solution then would be to make all transfers (regardless of there status as a CC transfer or not) take the course by not matriculating it. Which is what is already done.</p>

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<p>"Again, my focus is on the weeders, not all lower division courses. There usually aren't THAT many lower-division weeders in a given major, at most 3 or 4 (usually less). So why is it so problematic for a guy to prep for at most 3 or 4 waiver exams during a summer, when the exam topics are about things that he is supposed to know anyway?"</p>

<p>Well lets see, in order to transfer to Berkeley you have to take courses that are comparable to Berkeleys classes. This means that UCB has evaluated these courses and determined that they are consistent with the lower division course work at UCB. This in and of it self is why there is no need for an extra exam. UCB says the courses are consistent. Not to mention that you have to have a pretty high gpa to get into UCB anyway. Also if transfer students were required to take an extra exam after passing the class with an A to begin with, then UCB students should also have to take the class, pass it and take an extra exam. The argument for these exams is extremely faulty. Like another poster said, it would show that there is no value placed on the professors evaluations of their students at either school. Overall it sounds like you are jealous for some reason.</p>

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<p>See g1a2b3e, remember our conversation about this on another thread a couple weeks ago? This is exactly what I mean. UC students will never appreciate all the hard work we have to go through in order to transfer. They don't understand that only a select few transfer within 2 years. They don't understand that most of us have a hard time getting classes because of our work schedules or simply because we have so many students at our ccc. They don't understand that we have many more hardships or in some cases, many more problems compared to those students who had parents who would pay thousands of dollars for SAT prep schools. </p>

<p>All they know is that we are taking a "shortcut" through the system. They think that maintaining is 4.0 in CCC is really easy compared to UC's but they haven't taken any classes here. All they do is talk smack and whine how "unfair" it is. Is it our faults that the administration at CCC's actually want us to succeed and move onto better 4 year Universities? </p>

<p>This is a generalization, but transfer students tend to have the most fun and get the most out of their college education. Yes, we might have been at the lower end of the crop during HS, but guess what?? We partied our asses off, we were pretty much the popular ones in HS, and had experiences that the majority of people who studied and worked their butts off in HS never experienced until entering college!</p>

<p>Personality wise, students like SAKKY are extremely bitter and even ****ed off because students like us get to pretty much play 4 years in HS and really work and dedicate ourselves for 2 years and transfer. No, I'm not saying it was easy, but UC students (including my very own friends) all tend to be bitter towards transfer students because of the alternative path that we chose as compared to the more popular path of getting in out of HS.</p>

<p>And Sakky, I tried for a very long time not to post on back on this forum, but guess what? When you graduate, around 1/3 of the people receiving bachelor degrees will be originally from a community college. Not only will our "kind" of people be there next to you, but we are there to stay. No matter how hard and how much you advocate implementing these weeder classes for transfer, Berkeley will not do that. Not only will that cost them even more money, but that also means there will be even more overcrowding with students not graduating in 2 years upon transferring. Your precious "out of HS" admits might have even less chances of getting in because of the extra classes us "TRANSFERS" need to take in order to move onto upper- division classes. I hope you know that your kind of dream is never ever going to happen. UC's want kids to graduate ASAP so that they could clear up room and accept more students. I love my CCC and no matter where I go, I am proud of my humble beginnings. I'm pretty sure every transfer student will agree that the two years are one of our most memorable years because it taught us how to juggle work and school work.The place that not only prepared me for a UC, but also for life as we are more lively, vibrant, and definitely mature compared to you right out HS UC admits.</p>

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<p>HAHAHAHA........ahhhhh......HAHAHA.....HA</p>

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<p>In case some of you decide to skip to the last page .. let me post again..</p>

<p>See g1a2b3e, remember our conversation about this on another thread a couple weeks ago? This is exactly what I mean. UC students will never appreciate all the hard work we have to go through in order to transfer. They don't understand that only a select few transfer within 2 years. They don't understand that most of us have a hard time getting classes because of our work schedules or simply because we have so many students at our ccc. They don't understand that we have many more hardships or in some cases, many more problems compared to those students who had parents who would pay thousands of dollars for SAT prep schools.</p>

<p>All they know is that we are taking a "shortcut" through the system. They think that maintaining is 4.0 in CCC is really easy compared to UC's but they haven't taken any classes here. All they do is talk smack and whine how "unfair" it is. Is it our faults that the administration at CCC's actually want us to succeed and move onto better 4 year Universities?</p>

<p>This is a generalization, but transfer students tend to have the most fun and get the most out of their college education. Yes, we might have been at the lower end of the crop during HS, but guess what?? We partied our asses off, we were pretty much the popular ones in HS, and had experiences that the majority of people who studied and worked their butts off in HS never experienced until entering college!</p>

<p>Personality wise, students like SAKKY are extremely bitter and even ****ed off because students like us get to pretty much play 4 years in HS and really work and dedicate ourselves for 2 years and transfer. No, I'm not saying it was easy, but UC students (including my very own friends) all tend to be bitter towards transfer students because of the alternative path that we chose as compared to the more popular path of getting in out of HS.</p>

<p>And Sakky, I tried for a very long time not to post on back on this forum, but guess what? When you graduate, around 1/3 of the people receiving bachelor degrees will be originally from a community college. Not only will our "kind" of people be there next to you, but we are there to stay. No matter how hard and how much you advocate implementing these weeder classes for transfer, Berkeley will not do that. Not only will that cost them even more money, but that also means there will be even more overcrowding with students not graduating in 2 years upon transferring. Your precious "out of HS" admits might have even less chances of getting in because of the extra classes us "TRANSFERS" need to take in order to move onto upper- division classes. I hope you know that your kind of dream is never ever going to happen. UC's want kids to graduate ASAP so that they could clear up room and accept more students. I love my CCC and no matter where I go, I am proud of my humble beginnings. I'm pretty sure every transfer student will agree that the two years are one of our most memorable years because it taught us how to juggle work and school work.The place that not only prepared me for a UC, but also for life as we are more lively, vibrant, and definitely mature compared to you right out HS UC admits.</p>

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<p>
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They don't understand that only a select few transfer within 2 years.

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</p>

<p>Uhh...there is an abundance of CCC students transferring to Cal in two years. "Select few" only applies to schools like HYS. You guys have it pretty easy.</p>

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parents who would pay thousands of dollars for SAT prep schools.

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</p>

<p>Right... because every freshman admit at Cal took a prep course for the SAT...</p>

<p>
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All they know is that we are taking a "shortcut" through the system.

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</p>

<p>Given your poor arguments, you are probably attempting to conceal the fact that you are.</p>

<p>
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I love my CCC and no matter where I go, I am proud of my humble beginnings.

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</p>

<p>Ironically, such beginnings do not seem to correspond with the writer of what is quoted above.</p>

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but also for life as we are more lively, vibrant, and definitely mature compared to you right out HS UC admits.

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</p>

<p>That is so right! I mean, no freshman Cal student ever had a job in high school and earned good grades at the same time...</p>

<p>
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Well lets see, in order to transfer to Berkeley you have to take courses that are comparable to Berkeleys classes. This means that UCB has evaluated these courses and determined that they are consistent with the lower division course work at UCB.

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</p>

<p>Not really. There is definitely a difference in rigour between most courses at Cal and courses at a CCC. Though such a difference is not salient in the sciences, they are moreso in the humanities. Would you rather take intro to philosophy with John Searle or intro to philosophy with some random professor at a CCC? You can say that the latter professors have Ph.Ds from UCLA, Cal, or whatever; if with such a Ph.D they could only obtain a teaching position at a CC, that probably means that they did not perform so well when they earned that Ph.D. In essence, you have a choice between the nation's most prominent philosopher – who will definitely contribute to the rigour and quality of the course – and a newly-minted Ph.D who did not perform well enough to attain a job at a better school.</p>

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<p>nspeds,
I would just like to contribute the added hilarity of this statement: "we were pretty much the popular ones in high school".....to call upon my earlier post...HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!</p>

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<p>What happened to the days when success was cool?</p>

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<p>"Uhh...there is an abundance of CCC students transferring to Cal in two years. "Select few" only applies to schools like HYS. You guys have it pretty easy."</p>

<p>It's true that there are a lot of CCC students transfering to cal in two years, but it's not the majority of the students at CCC. CCC has tons of students, and most students transfer in 3 yrs especially if they major in science/engineering.</p>

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<p>
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It's true that there are a lot of CCC students transfering to cal in two years, but it's not the majority of the students at CCC

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</p>

<p>Yes, but it is hardly a "select few."</p>

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<p>Yes there are students transferring every single year, but students who transfer after 2 years of transferring.. as in students enter CCC at 18 upon hs graduation and transfer by the time they are 20 is very rare. Some students need to take remedial courses in order to even get to transferable ones while others still screw around in CC and wait until a year later before they realize how important a college degree really is</p>

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<p>
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Some students need to take remedial courses in order to even get to transferable ones while others still screw around in CC and wait until a year later before they realize how important a college degree really is

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</p>

<p>Yeah... stupid HS students who realize the importance of a college degree in high school and work hard to be admitted at Cal as freshmen. The joke is on them.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
if with such a Ph.D they could only obtain a teaching position at a CC, that probably means that they did not perform so well when they earned that Ph.D.

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</p>

<p>That statement relies too much on assumptions (unsubstantiated generalization). For example, I had a CC instructor that did undergrad at either Brown or Cal and then graduate school at either one (I can't remember which came first). Before teaching he had very good credentials, researching for various parties including Stanford at its Particle Accelerator. He said that he taught at community college because he "liked it here."</p>

<p>Regarding the amount of CC students that transfer...The last time I checked my community college had about 15,000 students. The yearly government transfer statistics show that about 50 students transfer to Berkeley annually. That's only .3% of my school's population. In terms of all UCs only 1% of students transfer from my college. When you add up all of the transfer students statewide that adds up to a lot of students, but that is nothing compared to the number of community college students in general.</p>

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<p>And yes aznboi you have a silly argument, just stop :p</p>

<p>I wish I had the time to cover up every point but I have to get ready for my vacation now :o</p>

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<p>"There is definitely a difference in rigour between most courses at Cal and courses at a CCC."</p>

<p>Rigor is the wrong word here. Although only allegory, I cannot count how many times I've heard university studets, mostly at the introductory level, complain about the lack of interest by the professors and/or the reliance on TAs and GSIs to teach the class. While it would be nice to learn from the preeminent names in a given field, instead of second hand though their books, at the introductory level (where breath is more important than depth) you not likely to see more information imparted onto the student.</p>

<p>"You can say that the latter professors have Ph.Ds from UCLA, Cal, or whatever; if with such a Ph.D they could only obtain a teaching position at a CC, that probably means that they did not perform so well when they earned that Ph.D. In essence, you have a choice between the nation's most prominent philosopher – who will definitely contribute to the rigour and quality of the course – and a newly-minted Ph.D who did not perform well enough to attain a job at a better school."</p>

<p>Lets not incorrectly stereotype CC professors as bottom of the barrel PhDs. There are many reasons CC professors choose not to teach at major research universities, one of them being the focus on research itself rather than teaching, another being proximity to family/home or more free time to raise children. Generalizing an entire population of professors would be as bad as saying university professors are uninterested in their students and devote the majority of their time to research. Which is not true.</p>

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<p>But lets not get off topic on the issue of fairness.</p>

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<p>Nspeds, what you are ignoring in my post is that UCB believes and has approved these courses as consistent with the their curriculum. You are not the end all for what is and isn't in life. Who knows UCB curriculum standards better than UCB...here is a hint it is not you. There are good and bad teachers at any school but I will take being taught by a "lower" phd (is there such a thing? LOL) than a TA any day.</p>

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<p>
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g1a2b3e, that obviously explains why sakky had a private meetings with a high ranking Berkeley official years ago on the subject.</p>

<p>Bang!

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HAAAA, some supposed meeting doesn't even come close to refuting my point. That's a far cry from an actual indication that a leader was considering the specific ideas discussed here.</p>

<p>Nspeds, you do not know much, if anything, about the Berkeley philosophy dept., so stop trying to come off as an expert. Searle hasn't taught a lower division course in at least the last three years and probably won't be teaching one anytime soon. And really, the comparison for those courses shouldn't be between the professors at Cal vs. Cccs; the comparison is between the GSIs at Cal versus the Ccc professors.</p>