Edit: tried to delete. Unintentional cross post.
The “holistic” approach is not confined to a handful of elite colleges. In CA where we live, admission to the UCs, and even some state schools, is increasingly “holistic” and now test-blind. This year seams the process was more random than ever – high-stat kids not admitted to any UC, kids rejected from all UCs but admitted to Berkeley, my son who was admitted to Stanford but waitlisted in Cal Poly SLO with perfect GPA from a very strong HS and 5s on Calc BC, Physics C, and 4 more STEM APs by the end of junior year (eventually admitted with a scholarship). Our kids used to be guaranteed admission if they were in the top 9% of their school. Not anymore, not even in UC Merced.
This moving of the goalposts leads to a lot of anxiety and engagement in resume-padding activities instead of focusing on learning. My son reports that a lot of kids in his advanced classes are not there to learn. They just want to get the “A” and go found the next STEM club (there are 100+ clubs in our HS, several with overlapping STEM focus).
I am glad that kids elsewhere have a normal life but in our very affluent, well-educated town the stress is real and there have been several suicides.
In comparison, my nephews who live in Canada focus on their studies as admission is based solely on GPA. If you have 95%, you will get into McGill Engineering, if not – you go to Ottawa U. There are no SATs, APs, essays, or near-professional sports or music ECs required. Would you like the mechanical engineer who designs the bridge you cross every day to be good at physics or play the oboe?
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Again, people need to understand that the goal of 'holistic admissions" is to assemble a class with diverse backgrounds, interests and talents. It is not about which individuals are smartest, or most hard-working or whatever, but how they well contribute to the mix of the class and contribute to campus life in general.
One thing about character: ability to overcome obstacles is also an important factor in “character.” So yes, kids who grew up homeless, or had medical problems or whatever, and still excelled, may have a better chance than, say, a prep school kid.
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I’m not sure how admission based on solely on GPA encourages learning over “just getting the A”, but even if we were to institute that approach there would still be too many qualified kids for the seats available at top schools. Frankly, if kids just want to get an education (as opposed to seeking out prestige) there are lots of colleges where admission is all but guaranteed - in fact every year there is a list of schools which can’t even fill their classes and are seeking additional applicants. But most affluent parents aren’t seeking “A” college - they want their kids to go to certain “prestigious” colleges. Thus the ensuing insanity.
I will add, however, that I do think it is disturbing that so many kids were shut out of the UC system which exists, ostensibly, to educate qualified kids from the state. Meanwhile, there were 10+ kids from our MA high school heading off to UC schools including 4 to UCLA – that doesn’t sit quite right.
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Private schools should have more leeway in terms of choosing their class. Their decision to use holistic admissions criteria is fine as long as it complies with the law.
But I think it’s just plain wrong that public universities choose their in-state students based upon holistic criteria. Their primary mission is to educate residents of the state, and their admission criteria should be objective. Note that I am not saying it has to be purely based on he best ranked students statewide. I think it is absolutely fine to reserve a number of slots for students in the top X% of their high school class to get automatic admission. Likewise, it is fine to rate applicants relative to their available opportunities. But it should not be trying to deduce an applicant’s character beyond seeing if that person has a criminal record.
The UC leadership in particular seem to have lost the plot and instead seem to be on a mission to dumb down some of its excellent public universities. The leaders of UMichigan, a much better run university, must be giddy at the possibility of overtaking Berkeley due to UC leadership’s incompetence.
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I actually agree with this - it seems unfair for strong CA students to be shut out of ALL UC schools (not just the most competitive ones) when the purpose of the schools is to educate in-state students (meanwhile, as I mentioned above, there are more kids than ever heading to UC schools from our MA high school).
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Where is the pressure coming from in your town? Kids don’t have to go to Stanford or a top UC to get an engineering degree. Lots of schools out there especially for the high achieving type of student you are describing. I understand that UC admissions were unpredictable this year but a good student has a ton of options across the country. If a student is really just looking to get that engineering degree and doesn’t care to meet other students who excel in other areas like music then there are also colleges that are most focused on STEM.
I get that expectations are high in your neighborhood but that’s likely the problem. We go through that to an extent here but, every year, there are top students going to lower ranked schools and they all seem to be happy and challenged. There’s only so much space in top 20 schools.
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The UC schools used to be a safe option, both financially and academically, for smart California kids. That is no longer the case, so of course they are very stressed. Yes, there are other options, but they may not be as affordable. Ironically, the UC schools are now the most popular option for our private school kids who can’t get into their own flagship, UT.
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Kids get shut out at other top public schools as well. UVA is a tough get. UIUC didn’t take two kids we know here in Illinois with top grades trying to get into their comp sci major - one went to Cornell and the other to Wash U. With California having so many (and such large) publics, though, it did seem like something went awry this year.
I think that is a problem. Very smart kids in Virginia, Michigan, Texas, California should have an instate flagship option to rely upon. Not having one increases everyone’s stress and the race for activities.
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Yes, especially in states where an outsize number of out-of-state kids are admitted. For example, Michigan has 47% out of state students - that seems like an inordinate amount. Are there really only 53% of resident students that are qualified to attend?
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I’m not sure about Michigan - I think a lot of in-state kids get in there even though they have a large percentage OOS. Michigan is a big school and the state isn’t as populous as Virginia, TX, CA.
I always find it funny how these elitist colleges work. “We have the BEST university because of our smart students.” That’s like GM saying they make the best trucks because they have the most experienced drivers. It’s completely backwards.
You don’t have to spend all your energy kissing-up to places, hoping that you’ll be the ONE they choose for the privilege to pay them $75,000 a year. This isn’t The Bachelor. Seriously…enjoy your teenage years! Injure yourself on a skateboard…something.
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Many people move to super competitive school districts because they think it will give their kids a leg up in applying to “elite” colleges. But they do so knowing those schools reject 19x, 9x or 4x as many kids as they accept. Presumably they think their kids will be the ones who get in (though other parents think the same thing and the rejection numbers are still there).
Holistic admissions are a luxury that some schools have because they get more than enough qualified kids. Gives them flexibility to pick the kids they want.
Change away from holistic admissions and you just change the pressure points in terms of stress.
Some publics take out of state kids to increase their profiles (don’t have sufficient kids in-state that they want). Others take them for revenue purposes in terms of out-of-state tutition. And some to allow for that geographic diversity map that private schools show. And for a mix of all of that.
Go where you are wanted; bloom where you are planted.
My D’s HS experience was so different than what many of you describe in terms of pressure. She went to a STEM focused private but the school was on the voucher system for the public schools in that area, so there was a ton of diversity both racial and socioeconomically. The vast majority of students chased merit $. The school was also a sports powerhouse. There were 14 NMF in her class of 203, and roughly 40 recruited athletes, 99% went on to 4 year colleges. Instead of boasting how many kids went to the Ivies, the school touted how much scholarship money was awarded to each class. The GCs were well versed on where students should apply and started hosting financial aid workshops for parents starting in freshman year. Everyone had an affordable safety thanks to the GCs, and our experience applying to colleges was pretty low key.
D got a fantastic HS education and has been super prepared for the rigors of engineering. She also had a very happy 4 years of HS. That isn’t saying she worked hard because she had a ton of work in HS but there was also balance.
My family in the NE seem to be having a much more intense experience so I wonder if some of it is regional. D grew up in the Midwest.
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We moved to a neighborhood with good schools because we wanted high quality education, not to get our kids into top ranked schools.
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You write this as if the same student can’t do both. They certainly can. Music students tend to be quite good at math/science IME.
There are so many top students via grades and even SAT/ACT there would be no way for the best schools to sift them out if they only looked at those - not to mention - if one thinks there’s stress now, imagine what it would be like for teachers if grades mattered even more. People complain about grade inflation now and Varsity Blues showed us just how reliable the SAT/ACT is (as do many studies showing lack of correlation).
Top schools could fill their classes 4 or 5 times over and still have top kids who do well.
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Big difference between good schools and super competitive schools.
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The more I read this thread, the more I think kids from our “slightly above average” school district have an edge if they wanted to go that route. They’d have to do more academic work on their own to have a solid foundation, but kids have done that. When we get a NMF it’s rare that they are rejected anywhere they apply. Few care to apply to tippy top schools (U Penn and Cornell can be common), so it’s tough to say for sure.
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Well I would say ours is pretty competitive at the top of the class for sure. Well known public that sends 98 percent to four year colleges with very high average SAT etc and lots and lots of APs. Usually 20-30 NMFs etc.