<p>Well, for example. One of my close friends works at a Fortune 500 company managing a beverage brand. The usual track for young associates is to attend business school after three years. There’s no REASON they have to do this. They are making six-figure salaries at age 25 (outearning thirty-year-old family physicians) and would continue advancing slowly within the company.</p>
<p>They all do jump, however, because the MBA helps accelerate them even faster. So they have to pack up, move to school, wait a year, get a summer internship (usually somewhere else), then move back to school, then move to wherever their job is. It’s a major hassle and a lot of chaos – but it’s entirely self-inflicted. There’s no reason whatsoever that any of them have to do this.</p>
<p>Young management consultants are the same way. Young product managers at Microsoft are the same way. I have a friend who’s a software engineer at a Silicon Valley startup–he jumped because he didn’t like the projects he was working on. One of my friends wants to move from writing (where she gets paid VERY well) to fashion (where she will hopefully get paid about the same) and is attending business school to facilitate the jump.</p>
<p>These jumps, strictly speaking, are all unnecessary. The fact that doctors don’t have anywhere to jump to isn’t necessarily a perk to the profession.</p>
<p>BDM,
"Other careers could be stable, too, if you were willing to forego your better options. " - which ones? The ones that I know (IT, engineering any kind of science / technical jobs are not stable at all). Then it goes: teaching reguires very special talent, not everybody can do it. Then you need huge luck / exceptional talents to be able to support yourself with: acting, music, art, sport. Can you give us examples of what you mean by stable careers. I would not go so far as stable income, I am interested more in high probability of having professional position without being let go many times in your carrier.</p>
<p>(avoidable – sign up at a big company) lol. Like GM? Or Chrysler? Or Boeing? or (I could name fifty). Do you want a mulligan on that one? </p>
<p>There are no guaranteed ways to avoid layoffs. American private industry is tanking. Manufacturing is NOT the place to be in 21st century America. American corporate mentality has changed to the quick buck. Our time windows have changed from decades to to quarterly reports. If they can kill 2,000 jobs to make the stock price higher this quarter and line the pockets of the upper-echelon, it happens. IMHO nobody in corporate America gives a tinker’s damn about their employees anymore. And if they do, chances are they will be gone soon as they get trampled by the Vandals and Goths in charge at their competitors. (The employees couldn’t care less about their employers either.)</p>
<p>Gee. I’m a cheery fellow. Look. I’m not very confident about the future and a stable job in a field you enjoy is , to me, something worth working hard to achieve . Even if it’s not a ticket to riches. For those who wanted to enter the profession to get rich, well…maybe there are better choices. But for the life of me, I really can’t name one.</p>
<p>The main other one that comes to mind is airline pilots. In-house corporate attorneys; accountants; other health professionals are all also very stable.</p>
<p>Again, IT, biological research, etc. all could be very stable jobs if you were working a mid-level job at a major corporation and were happy doing so. The fact that most folks jump from lab-to-lab (especially in a University context) isn’t necessary; it’s a consequence of the fact that they work in a grant-supported context or at a relatively small startup. The pharmaceutical industry, as pharmagal will tell you, has many very stable “corners.” The fact that the more glamorous (higher-paying?) jobs are very unstable doesn’t mean that the entire sector is.</p>
<p>Is Boeing in trouble? They seemed to be doing very well a few years ago in the wake of Airbus’s A380 fiasco; I actually own some BA shares and it’s been tanking a lot less than others. And I don’t think Detroit automakers really count when they’ve been clearly on the downturn for twenty-five years.</p>
<p>Microsoft, Merck, Exxon, Southwest Airlines, Toyota, AT&T, Apple… if you had asked me ten years ago which companies were going to be the most stable in ten years, that probably would have been my list. And that’s overlooking the CPG industry, where Kraft, Clorox, etc. have been doing very well by comparison. McKinsey, Bain, and the Boston Consulting Group have been in very little danger of layoffs. And the dramatic overreaction on the part of law firms is coming back to bite them now, as they’re running back to top law schools for unprecedented second-wave recruiting.</p>
<p>Everybody has known for 25 years that Detroit had no future. And we’ve also always known that investment banking was a volatile sector; that’s why they pay so well when the times are good. Manufacturing isn’t all that stable anymore, but, again, we’ve all known that since the rise of Japan in the mid-80s. Middle management at these places hasn’t been suffering nearly the same way over the past several years.</p>
<p>But I don’t see any reason to suppose that being a young product manager at Microsoft is any less stable than being a family physician if you’re willing to forego certain jumps for career advancement.</p>
<p>curmudgeon,
You are correct, though cheery or not. Try to find a job (any for that matter) around Detroit and Detroit is not the worst of them at all. People from my city are driving to work to Detroit on a daily basis, because we have always been in much worse economic situation. I am very lucky to find my 9 jobs here, others just move to better places (like California or NYC, believe it or not). One of my friends is in Medical field, she is driving to Detroit every day. But before she switched to medicine at tender age of 50, she could not find/hold any professional job here at all. She is Chemical Engineer (by original degree)</p>
<p>BDM,
None that you mentioned in #45 are anywhere stable at all. None in any manufacturing / consulting. I am IT professional with MBA (not reguired in my field at all, but very helpful when searching for a job, I have been told that in my numerous interviews) and 30 years of experience with huge list of very positive recomendations that could be obtained locally. And my H. engineer is Product manager. You really need to be connected much closer to realize that anything related to industry is not stable at all, not in terms of income, but in terms of just having a job. Pilots - exceptionally hard to get into, have certain number of hours, then, again, there are very few out there who can do it. Definitely not anybody that I know. I still would like to know some profession that is close to medical field in job security.</p>
<p>I should also add: don’t underestimate the chaos that comes from being a young physician in training. You have to move every three or four years until your mid-thirties. High school is in one place; college in another; usually an interim job somewhere else; then medical school somewhere else; then a residency somewhere else, possibly with a transition year somewhere else; then a fellowship in another location entirely; then finally starting up at your job.</p>
<p>Most young physicians have spent the past eighteen years living in eight different places, with vastly fewer regional options. This is not a cakewalk, either, although I admit that the risk of having to “jump” dramatically decreases after that.</p>
<p>I know little about IT but I think I remember the bubble bursting a while back. Have those jobs returned to the states? Airline pilots have reduced wages and benefits with the surge of low-costs airlines. I know 35 year old’s still flying regional jets for (relatively) dirt wages and recent grads still looking for jobs. I know nothing of pharma and I have already talked about the 12 new jobs in academia a year and the death of tenure. And that publish or perish thing is just dandy, too. </p>
<p>In-house attorney at a big corp? Probably still possible for a top school grad but I can’t see that being anything most potential med students would enjoy. I admit I could be mistaken. </p>
<p>And to be blunt, all these assume cream of the crop jobs going to cream of the crop talent. I just don’t think there is that many opportunities out there compared to our future need for physicians. </p>
<p>I do agree about other health-care fields. PT, OT, some nursing fields are great places for the right kid and I recommend them often.</p>
<p>I mean, jumping onto a bubble is never a good idea. The brunt of the 2001 crash fell on the startups or young programmers, not established managerial employees at companies like Microsoft or Apple. (Or, for that matter, on the IT arms of non-tech companies.)</p>
<p>It’s like saying that all the young real estate agents who jumped onto the bubble recently are unemployed. Of course they are. That doesn’t mean that established folks at well-grounded companies won’t be able to ride it out.</p>
<p>I recently spoke with a college junior who is working on this statement for her med school apps…Her philosophy is that she wants a profession that is noble, challenging and ever-changing. She’d like to be able to “help people” and have job security, but I got the distinct impression that her biggest prereq is that she not be bored. Can’t think of a better profession than medicine to fit her descriptors. </p>
<p>She is concerned that she might decide to stay home with kids one day and feel as if she’s wasted her education. I assured her she could work part-time or return to practicing medicine after her kids were older.</p>
<p>Rutgersmama,
Some of my friends who wanted to have a family and be able to practice medicine have chosen specialties which allow them fairly routine office hours. Among the least demanding appear to be Pathology and Psychiatry. I hear Path pays very well. Perhaps BDM and NCG could add more options for women who want to have both a family life and a career.</p>
<p>BDM,
"In-house corporate attorneys; accountants; other health professionals "</p>
<p>The only one’s that have job security out of above are health professionals. It does not mean that they would have a job in their city, but at least they will have A JOB. Some health care professionals still travel on a daily basis. But none MD’s that I know ever talk about job or traveling on a daily basis, they can afford talking about compensation, while the rest of us worry about our positions being eliminated again and again and again. </p>
<p>Curmudgeon,
IT has never been secure job. Yes, when it was getting close to 2000, we had a surge. I myself had to make huge changes for year 2000, that involved pages and pages of computer programs. Because of that enourmous effort of IT professionals we did not have significant system crash anywhere in a country. A lot of people were let go after that. However, it has never been secure and younger generation is not going to the field in big numbers anymore. I am not sure what will happen after we all retire, a lot of Indian and Chinese gone back home also. Most people are close to retiring age. However, outsourcing to places like Russia is still going on. Nobody hires, we just pray every day that job is there tomorrow. I have worked for several industries, Medical Insurance, retailers, government, consulting, even hospital. Being IT and not medical professional making my position insecure no matter where it is.</p>
<p>MiamiDAP, I agree with you on most of your points, esp. about the part: “it has never been secure and younger generation is not going to the field in big numbers anymore…However, outsourcing to places like Russia is still going on…we just pray every day that job is there tomorrow.”</p>
<p>While my child was in high school, the parents of many of his classmates are in either IT or engineering. Almost all of these kids were discouraged from following their parents’ career paths. Ironically, many of these kids were very good at computers/maths/sciences, maybe because of the environments they were brought up (or the genes?) – after all, their parents were doing this kind of stuff in their whole lives so they were exposed to this since young age.</p>
<p>During one spring break, my child visited his HS friends at a state university. Afterwards, he commented that very very few of his HS friends (who used to be good at sciences/math, at the high school level at least) major in science. At his college now, one of 2400 SAT scorers keeps a “very safe distance” from any science departments. She completes her premed requirement successfully, while majoring in some easier “XXX Studies.”</p>
<p>One kid (not in my child’s year) was good enough to get into MIT and chose to go elsewhere, not because of the money issue, but just because MIT does not have a good reputation for nurturing premeds. (He is in a top medical school now.) Another math genius, who received some national award (I heard she was invited to White House or something), was even discouraged by her parents to go into anywhere near these fields (maybe to the finance field instead.)</p>
<p>I sometimes wonder whether some of these parents over-react and some of these kids may rebel sooner or later. For example, I heard that one of kids at Duke rebelled against her parents’ wish recently because she wanted to have nothing to do with being a premed in freshman year. A major family feud. I sympathized with this kid. A common thread of these families is that these families do not have many financial resources or financial stability, relatively speaking.</p>
<p>^ I do not believe that parents over-react. I am IT and my H - engineer, we know a lot of people in both fields as well as MD’s. There is striking difference in what people discuss / how they live. You will never hear from MD: “How is job?”. 80% of MD’s in our city craduated from our local Medical School, so much about moving around for MD’s. And, although engineering firms are known to be hiring locally, since engineers are losing jobs often, they are definately move around much more, including seeking jobs internatinally. The same for IT.</p>
<p>“I have not personally met the MD who has been laid off once,”</p>
<p>I’ve met a few.And I’ve left two jobs. Just couldn’t do what they wanted me to do. I’m now in private practice and owning ANY business will include insecurities. Still, I spree there is a measure of security, especially if your are willing to be m employees and LIKE in employees, do what you’re told.</p>
<p>“there is very little variation in income or status.”</p>
<p>Not sure how to define “very little” but both H and I have had salary cuts as employees. My private practice has had a decrease in gross income of something like 40 percent over the last four years.</p>
<p>Right now it ‘d vote for “physician extenders” as z viable optima Not as much money, but not as much "grief’. </p>
<p>To me, the biggest uncertainty feeling so responsible, but having so little control.
To be honest, I have thought about alternative careers, but they just don’t make financial sense.</p>
<p>^ You are a good exmaple of what I usually hear from MD’s. You discuss “financial sense” . Others (like me) are praying to have a job where you do what you’re told or have more responsibilities, does not matter. It is OK. Just having a job makes me happy, even if income is cut in half or I need to travel, these are secondary. I love what I am doing and wish I can continue doing it and bringing some $$ to the family (my $$ will not make any financial sense to MD). Hey, my paid hours were not even cut like my H’s, we did not get any increases and bonuses, but my job is there, so I am good. But sonce my D had no desire to be in IT / engineering / law / pharmacy / teaching / business (all discussed) and she loves Biology and enjoys helping others (for money or volunteering), I encouraged her to go to Med. School so that she will avoid looking for a job 9 times like me.</p>
Look. I’m not very confident about the future and a stable job in a field you enjoy is , to me, something worth working hard to achieve . Even if it’s not a ticket to riches. For those who wanted to enter the profession to get rich, well…maybe there are better choices. But for the life of me, I really can’t name one.</p>