@xiggi, there are 6/7(/8) year accelerated guaranteed-entry pre-med programs for those kids who know they want to become doctors in HS.
I don’t see a lot different between UMKC’s 6-year MD program and the English 6-year MD programs.
Law school is set up the way it is because it’s a cartel.
All good points and vantages. That said, what I was trying to covey, was that essentially many jobs that have an intersection with business/consulting, are just looking for folks with keen analytical abilities that can learn on the fly. In fact, this is symmetrical with how many firms currently recruit. Previously, one would like a candidate that meet, say 7 primary factors, but what applied research has shown is that, if you find someone who has only 5 of of those 7, but that person has demonstrated both intelligence and productivity in all past positions, well, they are probably the better candidate. I have digressed a tad, but I think you know what I am saying…
My main point was that a lot of undergrad programs are structured to groom students for corporate America. LACs aren’t because they fit the traditional LAC model and pre professionalism classes with resume building and interview prep don’t fit into the “traditional” LAC focus.
I can only pull from my own experience with friends and acquaintances who go to LACs but these schools are structured around the classics. Students there are learning about culture, philosophy, science while undergrad business students are taking accounting and constructing resumes. Believe me, if I could afford to pursue the romantic idea of an LAC college experience I would like to, but my parents and I agreed that we wanted a place focused primarily on placement and that’s why I chose the route I did and it worked out. Now I’m helping my friends with the resume/interview/pre professional skills part.
I realize my path sounds very narrow and some might completely disrespect my school’s ignorance of the liberal arts. However, thousands of students have gone through the program each year and job placement is over 95% so it’s serving its purpose and students are getting careers out of it.
Coste- I appreciate your perspective and you sound like a fantastic hire for any company lucky enough to get you.
But surely you realize that you don’t need to take a college class to learn how to construct a resume? Especially not since the arrival of the internet? And you certainly don’t need a college class to learn how to interview- many colleges (even LAC’s) have lots of competent folks (not professors) in the career development office who teach and facilitate interview skill sessions for kids, regardless of their major or discipline.
You have raised a very valid point- everyone who expects to be self supporting needs to learn how to interview, how to construct a resume, how to prepare for a business meeting.
To the parents here- you can help your kids by encouraging them to learn how to do this, whether they are majoring in Management or majoring in Comparative literature. I myself meet young people all the time from both pre-professional and non disciplines who don’t have a clue on how to do either.
My favorite interview question (usually from a kid majoring in business I might add…) “So how is the company doing?”
ummmm… you’re interviewing here and you don’t know how the company is doing? Bloomberg, MSNBC, S&P, Dow Jones and you don’t have a clue how the company is doing?
The idea of taking a resume building/interview class is laughable, I totally get that. But usually these classes are a series delivered as four classes (one taken every year) that are manifested to help students center in on a career choice and build their brand. Often times this is mandatory networking with alumni or the workshops I mentioned regarding resumes and interviews. Wharton has something similar, but I’m not sure it’s four classes worth. It sound very “fluffy”, but you’d be surprised that a lot of students don’t think about this. Students outside of the b-school tend to do this late sophomore/early Junior year while b-school kids do it beginning as freshmen.
My main point is that undergrad business schools only focus on placement and doing everything in the career offices’ power, the faculty’s power, and the dean’s power to get students top placement into whatever corporate job they want. This is obviously flawed and providing students with a very one-sided education. That’s maybe why HYP and top schools don’t participate. The idea of b-school factories for corporate monkeys is sad, but the economy is super competitive. Top programs like HYP will never have to participate in this because they are so esteemed.
If I had to do it again I would have loved to go to Dartmouth and study urban planning like one of my friends. But I didn’t have a lot of options in terms of cost of attendance and a lot of other factors. Either way, my friend and I landed the same job so I guess it worked.
Note that law school used to be available to those without bachelor’s degrees.
Of course, even with the artificial restriction of needing a bachelor’s degree before going to law school, there is still an overproduction of lawyers, with obvious results in the law job market.
@ucbalumnus since business majors are so popular, is this why the school you attend (its reputation, quality of students and staff,etc) is very important?
It is probably more significant for business majors (and many other majors) who are looking for jobs that may be seen as being some level of “elite”, than for some other majors (like engineering or nursing) where external accreditation and/or licensing ensures that those who graduate (or earn the license, as applicable) from any school in such a major will be seen as being at least decent in doing the job, and where the rigor enforced by such accreditation prevents a heavy oversupply of graduates (of course, there can be oversupplies during industry or economic downturns).
Re: #153
Surely a lack of passion and extracurricular interest in the general subject of one’s major or other subjects does exist among students of all majors (whether pre-professional or liberal arts, and remember that many liberal arts majors are chosen for pre-professional reasons).
Well said–lucid and cogent. My wife is a doctor, and unless you wanted to pursue academic medicine, there is less prestige factor tethered to the institution–and in fact, much more emphasis is placed on where you did your residency.
I’m only throwing this out as a lay person, with no deep understanding of the in’s and out’s, but I would say it depends on whether or not it’s a top tier. UC Berkeley’s undergrad Haas School of Business has something like an 88% employment rate three-months post-grad, with a lot going to local tech (Silicon Valley top tier), so it must have some value. That is not to say one doesn’t need to augment at some point for greater promotion potential.
I cannot help to think that you might hold an overly romantic view of what today’s LACs really are. Granted there are schools such as Sarah Lawrence that have a distinct perspective on the marketable skills to be acquired, but you might find the future of the graduates at competitive LACs representing a top priority of the administrators and leaders. Of course, that future is hardly confined to an immediate career as colleges value the pursuit of terminal degrees.
The process of “selling or packaging oneself” is hardly restricted to the next employment office! Students who apply to graduate schools with or without scholarships have to learn to prepare “resumes and CV” and the same applies to many competitive internships. Think that LAC graduates need help building a one-page résumé and prepare for an interview? How do you think students who survived 4 years of small classes taught with a Socratic approach do in presenting themselves? Or in writing a personal statement? The answer might surprise you.
Again, all schools are not created equal!
OP, here what I reccomend.
Go to a top 25 school and major in econ or a top UG biz school and major in finance.
Get good grades, network, internship, etc.
You’ll be on the street in no time.
I have two issues with this thread:
You are confusing the discussion between “Business” and “Accounting”. Accounting and Finance in an undergraduate business programs can be very technical and rigorous degrees with good employment opportunities directly out of college. Business can also include marketing, HR, management, and supply chain, which are often less rigorous (I’m less sure about employment numbers) Students switch from accounting to other business specialties because they can’t handle the workload and difficulty. So all branches of business are not the same.
All business schools, and LACs are nowhere near the same, as the earlier post @Xiggi pointed out:
With all due respect, may I ask you ... how do YOU know this? Is it possible that you are a bit guilty of over-generalizing what LACs do and overlooking that all of them are not created equal?
[/QUOTE]
I totally agree with this statement. Consider these two LACs-- Amherst and CMC (Claremont-McKenna). CMC has a separate major within Econ called “Economics-Accounting”, with 10-12 accounting and finance classes. This is on top of a great liberal arts education Amherst, a very top LAC, not only doesn’t have anything so pragmatic in their econ major as even basic accounting, but if you go to UMass Amherst on their cross-registration offering and take business classes there, Amherst won’t let you count them towards your Amherst degree.
@Barrons, I don’t agree that the ranking you posted for undergraduate business schools is very good, primarily because of how it mistreats any of the schools “not nationally ranked” in the US News report. The reason they are “not nationally ranked” is because 3 of them, Babson, Richmond, and Bentley are considered Liberal Arts Colleges by US News, and the 4th - Villanova - is ranked in Regional Universities by US News. Putting Villanova’s business school below U of Arkansas in inane. Richmond, by one ranking, has the #1 International Business school in the country, and this list has them at 72nd. What are all those state schools doing in there – Penn State graduates 1500 business majors a year. I have a hard time believing those students are getting the quality business education of Villanova business students.
Perhaps this sums up my thinking in a more clear manner:
https://hbr.org/2014/02/how-liberal-arts-colleges-can-stop-fueling-the-skills-gap
He focuses on exactly the “skills” I’m talking about that some may find liberal arts majors lack.
Daddio- while I agree with much of what you saying, your comparison of Amherst and CMC just tells me that if I want to major in accounting I shouldn’t go to Amherst. There are hundreds of colleges that don’t offer a major in Classics or nursing or agronomy or early childhood education, and kids who want to study those things as undergrads are clearly not well served by going to those colleges. Gotcha. point well taken.
That in no way changes the employment prospects of kids who study “something practical” only to get out the other end and discover that their degree does not prepare them for the track they want.
And is not an argument that employers who prefer a kid who has excelled in their studies (whether finance, ancient history, or political science) should “lower the bar” to hire a management major from XZY college with a sub-par GPA just because the kid has passed a bunch of classes in organizational behavior, strategy, and information management (not CS but MIS). The “core” curriculum in some (not all) undergrad business programs is about as relevant to the work a kid would have to do in a corporation as is ancient history, i.e. not that much.
Companies don’t need kids who have taken “buyer behavior” for a job in market research. They need kids who have a good grounding in statistical methodology, understand what the numbers do and don’t say in any given analysis, can summarize a 400 page quantitative survey with a well written 4 page executive summary, and can recognize "Garbage In, Garbage Out’ in terms of data quality or logical inconsistency when they see it.
The kid could have learned that majoring in transportation planning or econ or sociology or psychology. The company doesn’t care. But the kid demonstrates the core skills required to be good at market research. Not a major in business with a concentration in marketing with not a single course on statistical methodology. (and yes, these programs exist. And even the ad agencies and the media companies- which used to be the last resort of kids who didn’t like math but liked marketing-- look for kids with a strong quantitative and analytical base. Try making a decision about a strategic re-branding when nobody on your team can understand the data.)
I have read most of the posts on this thread, and the majority of posters have indicated or implied that an undergraduate business degree isn’t “worth it.” I am a current high school senior from Canada and leaning towards a career in business over medicine, simply because I find that business matches with my personality and interests better than medicine. Are most of you suggesting that by pursuing an undergraduate business degree I am making a mistake? I am aiming to obtain a quality full-time job in finance or consulting following UG business and/or have the opportunity for career advancement, if this is not possible I would rather take my chances with medicine. My first choice is business, but after reading this thread I am starting to have doubts. Please help me make a prudent decision regarding my future career.
Sorry, but that reply is amazingly disappointing. You counter an argument about relying on gross generalizations with more of the same, safe and except that you are now quoting someone else’s opinion!
I did point out to the need to differentiate schools and programs and not lump them together in broad categories. Again, in case that was missed the first time around, there ARE schools that have been able to combine a rigorous liberal arts education AND the demand for marketable skills in THIS century, including the ability of understanding a viewpoint different from your own and answering with a cogent answers with words of your own.
Ouch xiggi, that was pretty blunt.
I understand where you’re coming from. I can only draw on my personal social circle and can only compare what I know to my friends’ experiences they’ve communicated to me. We are on a forum, which makes this an acceptable place to do so. I’m not arguing that LAC’s are worthless. I simply spoke on the structure of undergrad b-schools and the typical LAC model. I gave my opinion on undergrad business schools and why I don’t think HYP should incorporate undergrad b-school programs.
I don’t doubt some LACs are perfect schools over everything else. I do know many of my friends who go to popular Northeast LACs would speak differently, though.
@Martin18 ; Do what you want. Don’t let other people drastically change something you enjoy/are passionate about. Someone else posted earlier that going to top 25 program in the major you seek, getting good grades, and networking will get you a top job. I’m unfamiliar with the Canadian system, but I’m sure it isn’t too distant of an ideal.