Why I'm glad my kid's not an Ivy candidate

<p>Let’s get something straight: because the author is a moron and doesn’t know how to speak to a plumber does not mean it is the fault of the college he attended. Painting everyone with that brush (all Ivy attendees have no common sense or commonality with the general population) is good fodder for an essay but not for life. </p>

<p>Also, the world does not live and die by the Ivies (which I probably the OP’s point). My DDs didn’t ever consider any of the Ivies even though their stats were in range. The school is just not that important in forming a person (which the author apparently missed).</p>

<p>You continue to obsess on one paragraph of a lengthy article, either because you are too lazy to read the whole thing or have read it and have no answer to it. </p>

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<p>[#98</a> The Ivy League Stuff White People Like](<a href=“http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/2008/05/06/98-the-ivy-league/]#98”>http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/2008/05/06/98-the-ivy-league/)</p>

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<p>If a kid wants to go to an Ivy league school, let them. Just make sure that the kid remembers his roots… or, if he/she’s been surrounded by mid/upper class people his entire life, is reminded of the true nature of the world.</p>

<p>This isn’t about the students. They are products of their upbringing and our sick, materialistic culture and should not be blamed for being what they are. It’s about the colleges that are failing them by shaking them loose from all that. </p>

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<p>Oh no, materialism. You must be so ascetic or something. Glad to see there’s people free of corrupt mainstream culture and whatever.</p>

<p>I doubt that going to another college would automatically make a student less wordly or something. Sure, at large schools, you do have marginally more “working class” students, with their great values or humbleness or whatever. But you also have the middling prep school (not all prep schools are Andover) and upper-middle-class kids who are there to party 24/7. </p>

<p>I mean, what’s so great about mainstream people anyways? People always complain about Jersey Shore and the overpaid players of the NFL. Supporters of these are always a problem, unless they need saving from the cold-hearted, vicious elites. </p>

<p>And oh, shame on me for attempting to go to school that isn’t filled with the same kind of people I’ve been living with for the past twelve years by not wanting to go to some third-tier state or religious school. People might think of them as surprising bastions of intellectual knowledge. I see them as places where “what are the first and last books of the Bible?” is asked (on a multiple-choice test, no less) and where I can not understand a single thing on a book and still make a 96% on a midterm. Before you think I’m trying to brag, doing something like that would not be something I could do in my public school high school or even middle school.</p>

<p>Pretty sure he’s trolling at this point, no one is that stupid. This does not merit a more lucid or well thought out rebuttal.</p>

<p>What? Another Ivy League hater or two? (yawn) So what else is new?. Nothing to see here folks. Move along.</p>

<p>I have not read the article, nor most of the above comments, but I think the OP is very offensive. Seriously, labeling the thread “Why I’m glad my kids not ivy candidate”?</p>

<p>Does being an ivy candidate automatically make you a bad person or something? So is every single ivy candidate somehow a worse person or something? I bet the OP has not even met 0.000001% of all ivy candidates and he is judging them all. It’s like saying 'Why I’m glad my kid is not jewish".</p>

<p>To clarify, I was not talking about the article or any of the topics in it. I am just making a point about the title of this thread.</p>

<p>If you can’t refute the arguments, turn to an ad hominem attack. How intellectual!</p>

<p>I have already made it very clear that I was not talking about the arguments presented in the article. I was discussing a different issue concerning your choice of title for this thread.</p>

<p>It is wrong to classify my post as an ad hominem attack when I did not even intend my point to have anything to do with the arguments. I never said ‘the article is wrong because the OP has a questionable character’. Get your definitions right.</p>

<p>You see, I plan to be an Ivy candidate myself. You do not know me and yet you presume to make assumptions that I am the kind of person your do not want your kids to be like. This is the true unintellectual thing to do. I’m sure if you try to put yourself into the shoes of the people you are offending, you will understand my point of view.</p>

<p>I very much like that the author of the article is drawing attention to the most pressing issue in higher education right now - socioeconomic diversity. When the affirmative action ‘wars’ started decades ago, those in favor of it often asserted something along the lines ‘giving a leg up to those who never had the opportunity’ and so on. The problem has been that most of the minority students at elite colleges have been well-to-do anyway, which defeats the main argument for AA.</p>

<p>Now, we’re seeing a different trend, which is why he’s dead-wrong when he asserts that “With respect to class, these schools are largely—indeed increasingly—homogeneous.” The elite schools have, for a few years now, focused more and more effort on changing that and as a result are becoming less homogeneous. Most of these elite schools do extensive recruiting among less-privileged high schools; for example, every top-10 school in US News except one is a partner college of QuestBridge (and most of the top-20 schools are as well), which has literally tens of thousands of links to low-income students via high school counselors and teachers. As a result of such activities, the proportion of students from the lowest economic bracket have steadily increased: at HYPSM, that number is around 15-20% of Pell Grant students in recent admitted classes, among the highest in the nation. A similar proportion are first-generation college students.</p>

<p>The spotlight has been on socioeconomic diversity for a few years now, and we’ve seen drastic changes in the makeup of the elite schools’ student bodies. And because of their enhanced financial aid initiatives, more middle-income students are able to attend, making these campuses less frequently the breeding grounds for privilege and wealth. The result is that students of different ‘classes’ (I hate using that word) necessarily interact more.</p>

<p>So I think what he calls a disadvantage has very much turned into an advantage: regardless of how much income and class are discussed on these campuses, students are continually exposed to people who grew up in a different socioeconomic environment, and the ultimate conclusion they make is that there’s really no difference in what kind of people they are. Your class doesn’t define you or your friends, or how intelligent you are, or how successful you can be.</p>

<p>In my experience (not at an Ivy but the author would condemn it anyway), I met many a ‘rich’ student - sons and daughters of investment bankers, famous actors, venture capitalists, politicians. Although I came from a very underprivileged background (read: “poor as dirt”), it made no difference in my interactions with them. They made no assumptions about me and treated me no differently upon finding out my background. (In fact if anyone were making assumptions, it was me - assuming that they’d be snooty enough to treat me differently.) </p>

<p>The author’s fundamental error is that he assumes there’s a “way” to talk to people of different classes. Even if there is, the problem at these schools would not be because of an unwillingness to interact with people of ‘lower’ classes, as the author suggests. As far as I’ve seen, that problem isn’t present at the elite schools who make an effort to have socioeconomically diverse student bodies: students of different backgrounds are able to interact without any difficulty.</p>

<p>This isn’t to say there isn’t more work to be done. But the author definitely overstates the extent of this problem at the elite schools and seems to have a somewhat outdated experience. A study done nearly 10 years ago showed that 74% of the students at the top 146 colleges are from the top economic quartile, and only 3% are from the bottom. While I don’t think those numbers are very different today, I’m quite confident that they are very different specifically at the elite schools that the author is condemning.</p>

<p>One thing we know for sure … Prof Deresiewicz is not a Red Sox fan.</p>

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The knee-jerk response is actually “No, go to your state school, you’ll make just as much money.”</p>

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<p>Elite colleges and grad schools do admit an outsized share of minorities whose parents were doctors, lawyers, civic leaders, occasionally even Republicans. So AA (as practiced) at least reinforces the reality that not all minorities are cabbies, janitors, nurses, or gardeners. This in itself is a good thing (as long as it isn’t crowding out equally talented applicants from even more diverse backgrounds).</p>

<p>William Deresiewicz is an English professor. “Talking to the plumber” likely is a metaphor for something else. Do elite universities (especially in the humanities) address big problems in vernacular language, or do they tend to address specialized problems in highly technical language? Any random Ivy Leaguer may or may not have the gift (or the inclination) to make small talk with ordinary people in everyday social situations. The more important issue is whether higher education helps people make small talk about big problems in a way that enriches everyday life.</p>

<p>One of the biggest social changes in my lifetime has been the decline in church attendance. 50 years ago, church was a place where people from all walks of life could hear a sermon about big, shared problems. The language was vernacular but elevated with biblical quotes and allusions. The same language (and shared concerns) once influenced academic dialogue. I don’t think it does anymore, not very much anyway. Nothing has replaced the church’s role. Chat forums? Not quite.</p>

<p>Science and politics, not religion, increasingly shape the way academics frame and discuss humanistic problems. Discussion gets burdened with jargon or narrowed by contemporary concerns about the politics of class, gender and race. So ironically, it may be becoming harder, not easier, for some educated people to see things from the perspective of others who don’t share the same daily experience. That is what liberal education once was supposed to do for students who labored to learn Greek and Latin to experience the language and ideas of people who lived in very different times and places, on the author’s own terms.</p>

<p>To repeat myself, since some people didn’t get it the first time: I’m not critical of kids who choose to apply to an Ivy. I’m sorry for those of them who get in and are subjected to the soul-killing circumstances that the author describes (for those who, unlike zhang, have actually read the whole article). And I’m profoundly glad my D’s not among them. </p>

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<p>Instead of blaming his Ivy Education, perhaps the author should look to his parents who raised him in an insular household. Our plumber has been talking to our kids since they were little.</p>

<p>My son is an Ivy grad and his soul doesn’t appear to have been destroyed. Due to my parenting, it was probably destroyed before he went, though.</p>

<p>We get these threads regularly. They could be titled “How I am convincing myself that Ivy schools are awful since my kid wouldn’t have a prayer of getting in.”</p>

<p>^ agreed. I thought it ironic that the author talked about elite schools being a “temptation for mediocrity” when his whole article qualifies as a “temptation for mediocrity.”</p>