Why is Georgia Institute of Technology's 4-year graduation rate SO LOW?

@shortnuke , I agree with this part:

"The way I see it, co-op is an investment the student is making. They forgo earning a higher salary for 6 months to a year in the hopes of gaining a positive return based on the experience they gain and the opportunities they may otherwise not get. "

As with every investment analysis, you have to do a comparison of opportunity cost. From my experience, going to work earlier pays off. In the company I work for (one of the largest high tech company), if you perform satisfactorily in the first year, you easily get more than 9% salary increase. So, why do co-op and hoping for the 9% salary bump when you can do real job and almost guaranteed a 9% bump?

The only scenario that works in co-op’s favor is if you are a marginal candidate and need that experience to get an interview. But even in that case, a summer internship will be a better use of time.

Two kids from the same school, same major, GPA and the like who do you think has the advantage of getting the job offer? The one who has never held a job or the student with real job skills learned on the job? If the job requires a year of on the job experience you are locked out of that opportunity. There are plenty of skills colleges do not teach that employers do, that are valued by HR when recruiting candidates.

As an employer who does hire summer interns, I feel a few weeks is all I need to determine if I want this person back when they graduate. I do not need an entire semester to find out.

And as far as bias towards students who interned or did a coop at other employers, doesn’t do much for me. That said, interviewing someone a year older, a year more mature, would also influence the hiring and salary stats. For that matter the better students get the internships to begin with, so is it the coop or the person getting the better offers on avg ? Same arguments like admission to top schools, is it the top school or the type of students at the top schools that get the better avg outcomes ?

If one has significant accomplishments to speak about on a job interview, one can get that first opportunity. In my case I explained to employers that I got my 4 year degree in 3 years, and I’ll get their 4 month project done in 3 months too !

Another critical value to co-op is the chance to experience and sample different types of jobs. A common co-op is three semesters with three different jobs within the company. You get to see what type of work you like or don’t like, allowing you to better target your permanent job search and potentially avoid starting out your career in a bad fit.

Back in olden times, it used to be that GT had a state-mandated requirement to have at least 50% + 1 students from Georgia overall (this may still be true - don’t know). So the admission standards for in-state resident was MUCH lower than for out-of-state and foreign students, and many of the kids from GA could not hang.

So what they would do is admit a crapload more GA residents. The first year year and half were all huge lecture hall classes so who cared how many students you had in them?. Then starting at the end of sophomore year, as you are getting ready to start taking much smaller, more specialized, classes which were more expensive to offer, you would take EE 100 and EE 101 (for example) - which would be your last huge lecture hall classes. This is where they weeded out students. They would decide how many slots they had for upper graduates taking the smaller classes, and they would group all the final scores together for EE 100 (and EE101) and give a C or better to the number they had room for and the rest who got Ds or Fs had to retake the course. You had three tries total to make the cut for the two courses, or you were booted out of EE and introduced to the wonderful world of Industrial Management.

Many of those folks who did not make the cut transferred to another school at that time or dropped out of college altogether I think maybe 70% of freshman and sophs were GA residents, and maybe 30% of upper graduates were. It was a nice system! This fine system explained the low grad rates back in olden times. Maybe it still does?

@Jawtek82 Very few people fail out of Tech and almost all students accepted from Georgia are more than capable of completely their degrees at Tech. If you’re going to post tales of how the majority of Georgia students failed out or had to transfer, you need to provide data to back up those claims. Posting absurd rumors that have little basis in reality is not useful information for prospective Freshmen.

@InPusuit - I said “in olden times” not the present, and I never said that the majority of Georgia students failed out or had to transfer (although in my experience . . . most of the ones I knew either failed out, transferred, or graduated with IM degrees), and I SPECIFICALLY asked if this was still the case because I do not know what goes on there now, but what I described went on for YEARS. I thought those reading comprehension test scores had improved at Tech. LOL!

I’m talking a long time ago (as I said) and I’m not talking “absurd rumors” as you so rudely accuse me of, and I saw the old green dot matrix printouts of EE101 scores they used to post on the wall in the EE building with the big black line marking the cutoff (If they still have this practice I am sure they have better technology to implement it now), and I knew people who were forced out of EE and as a result either went IM or left Tech,

And IMO the majority of the people who were forced out back then (and that is EXACTLY what happened) were ALSO “capable” of completing their degrees, but Ma Tech had another agenda and I sat there in the Lyman Hall Laboratory building (see how that is?) and had a long-forgotten freshman chemistry prof say look to your left and look to your right . . . one of you will not graduate. And he was correct. Do you dispute any of that???

Finally, it is “completing their degrees” not “completely their degrees.” I am hoping Tech’s English Department is at least as good as “in olden times.”

Now . . . you got anything else? Maybe, since you seem to be so big on statistics, some statistics on what the true graduation rates are today . . . especially broken down by in-state and out-of-state students? Are they ever going to bring back drownproofing - maybe you want to tell “prospective Freshmen” about that because it is sure as heck that no one did “in olden times.” What a rude awakening that was.

Anything else? For “prospective Freshmen?”

Georgia Tech has a 97% Freshmen retention rate. They still are over 50% from Ga making it more competitive for OOS but the Ga students are equally as qualified and capable of the work.

@123Mom456 - Thanks for the data. The Freshman retention rate was pretty good “in olden times” too. Don’t know the numbers, but it was pretty good.

Tell me: what is the “sophomore retention rate?” Because (as I explained in detail) the end of the second year is when they culled the herd “in olden times.” And do you have the breakdown on the ratio of in-state to out-of-state students by class: Freshman, second year, third year, fourth year? Or even, say take a major (ME, EE) and what is the ratio of of in-state to out-of-state acceptances versus of in-state to out-of-state awarded BEE or BME degrees? THAT would be a lot more interesting to me, anyway.

I think it would be GREAT if Ma Tech changed her ways and no longer preyed upon (and that is the way I would characterize it) a bunch of marginal in-state kids to get all of her numbers the way she wants them. Didn’t like that “in olden times” - a lot of those folks were my buds, and I saw how it affected them. A LOT has changed since then . . . including the fact that you can now get a fine BSEE or BSME degree from UGA, right?

But if things did change . . . the question still remains from the OP . . . “Why is Georgia Institute of Technology’s 4-year graduation rate SO LOW?” And who/what is to blame for that???

To add to what 123Mom456 has said, the retention rate remains at 90%, even after four years, and the 6-year graduation rate is now 86%. Tech does not publish an in-state/out-of-state breakdown, but for transfer students, who are almost all Georgia residents and often have lower stats than incoming freshmen from Georgia, the one year retention rate is 94.7% and the four year retention rate is 86%.

Drown proofing is no longer a class. Back in 1986, only 11.2% of grades awarded in lower level undergraduate engineering courses were either a D or F and 51.7% were an A or B. For low level math, science, and liberal arts classes in 1986, the percentages were 11.3% D/F and 55.4% A/B. Given the rapid increase in student quality over the years, it is no surprise numbers are even better today; only 3.2% of undergraduate engineering grades in 2016 were a D or F and 67.5% were an A or B.

I was only able to find graduation rates back to 1990, but at that time, 69% graduated within 7 years, which isn’t too far off from your 1 in 3 dropout number, but that number has fortunately increased to 86%.

I obviously don’t know when the “olden times” were, but for at least the last two to three decades the vast majority of Tech students have eventually graduated and the percentage of failing grades given has been very low. Today, almost everyone graduates and most do so with a GPA above 3.0.

@123Mom456 - Thanks for the data. The Freshman retention rate was pretty good “in olden times” too. Don’t know the numbers, but it was pretty good.

Tell me: what is the “sophomore retention rate?” Because (as I explained in detail) the end of the second year is when they culled the herd “in olden times.” And do you have the breakdown on the ratio of in-state to out-of-state students by class: Freshman, second year, third year, fourth year? Or even, say take a major (ME, EE) and what is the ratio of of in-state to out-of-state acceptances versus of in-state to out-of-state awarded BEE or BME degrees? THAT would be a lot more interesting to me, anyway.

I think it would be GREAT if Ma Tech changed her ways and no longer preyed upon (and that is the way I would characterize it) a bunch of marginal in-state kids to get all of her numbers the way she wants them. Didn’t like that “in olden times” - a lot of those folks were my buds, and I saw how it affected them. A LOT has changed since then . . . including the fact that you can now get a fine BSEE or BSME degree from UGA, right?

But if things did change . . . the question still remains from the OP . . . “Why is Georgia Institute of Technology’s 4-year graduation rate SO LOW?” And who/what is to blame for that???

@123Mom456 - Thanks for the data. The Freshman retention rate was pretty good “in olden times” too. Don’t know the numbers, but it was pretty good.

Tell me: what is the “sophomore retention rate?” Because (as I explained in detail) the end of the second year is when they culled the herd “in olden times.” And do you have the breakdown on the ratio of in-state to out-of-state students by class: Freshman, second year, third year, fourth year? Or even, say take a major (ME, EE) and what is the ratio of of in-state to out-of-state acceptances versus of in-state to out-of-state awarded BEE or BME degrees? THAT would be a lot more interesting to me, anyway.

I think it would be GREAT if Ma Tech changed her ways and no longer preyed upon (and that is the way I would characterize it) a bunch of marginal in-state kids to get all of her numbers the way she wants them. Didn’t like that “in olden times” - a lot of those folks were my buds, and I saw how it affected them. A LOT has changed since then . . . including the fact that you can now get a fine BSEE or BSME degree from UGA, right?

But if things did change . . . the question still remains from the OP . . . “Why is Georgia Institute of Technology’s 4-year graduation rate SO LOW?” And who/what is to blame for that???

Here is a great link to retention and graduation rates.

http://www.irp.gatech.edu/retention-and-graduation-rates

Sophomore retention is over 93%.

I believe a few people have answered OP’s question. Co-Oping is an optional 5 year year program and over 1,700 students participate. The five year graduation rate of over 80% is very good. Some students graduate in four years, some students just take longer as they would anywhere else and some chose to co-op and take 5 years.

I don’t know if this is also a factor but it was something talked about at orientation and could also be an issue at other Ga schools but at Ga Tech more so. Many Ga students start on Hope and Zell Miller Scholarships. That is their plan going in as to how they are going to pay for college. At orientation it was mentioned to the parents that you should have a plan B. Hope and Zell Miller have GPA requirements and a some students will lose that scholarship in subsequent years. Could more Ga students be dropping out because they no longer have a way to pay their tuition? This is not a factor for OOS or International students as we know we will have to pay the cost every year.

I believe the Zell Miller scholarship can last up to seven years of study at Ga Tech, so Georgia students have
no reason to rush through the degree program, as long as they meed GPA requirements, so the in state students are basically being told to go very slowly, get good grades, and take as long as they want, the GA taxpayers pick up the bills !!

Here are the rules for Zell Miller, its essentially a full tuition scholarship with some GPA requirements, that can last
up to 127 credits at Georgia Tech, NO MATTER HOW SLOWLY you make it through, but I think seven years is the limit.

https://www.finaid.gatech.edu/zell-miller-scholarship

OOS students paying cash are loading up to 17 or 19 credits a semester, so they can get out of there
in four years, so the two groups of students in state and OOS are on different speeds and plans.

Its kind of crazy, to be honest. My kid is one that is loading up to finish. He only socializes with other out of state students doing the same. He has little free time, as the programs are DESIGNED to be FIVE YEARS for free for Georgia kids, with Zell Millers. I wish I had known this going into it, but he loves Ga Tech.

First off, to be considered a full time student you must be taking 12 credit hours. So seven years and the state of Georgia is not paying. The notion in state students don’t also load up on credits is ridiculous. If you lose Zell which many students do its in their best interest to load up on credits while receiving Hope. My in state child is graduating in less than four years and will have completed a coop. Additionally, my kid with six classes managed to hold a job working 10-20 hours a week and have a social life all at the same time and manages to have plenty of instate friends who are likewise over scheduled.

@scubadive Like Coloradomama said, the eligibility limit for HOPE is seven years. Hope also ends after 127 credit hours, so you are correct that a student could not be full time for seven full years, but could use HOPE to pursue 127 hours over a seven year period. I’m glad your child has managed to take a heavy load, work, and have social life. That’s great, but in no way detracts from the fact that some in-state students do not feel any rush to get out because HOPE makes it more affordable for them to extend the length of their studies. That’s what Coloradomama was saying, and just because that logic does not apply to your child’s situation does not mean it is not a factor for many in-state students. What your child’s results do show, as do the results of some 40% of Tech students, is that it is very possible to graduate in four years.

https://www.gafutures.org/hope-state-aid-programs/hope-zell-miller-scholarships/hope-scholarship/award-amounts/hope-seven-year-eligibility-limit/

There is a bit of a divide between in state and out of state students, as most public universities have.
In state students do hang out with their high school friends. OOS students cannot do that, and must branch out.
There is a strong perception among everyone I meet that Georgia Tech is impossible to finish in four years, but
plenty do finish, but changing majors will make it very difficult. Georgia Tech has sequenced subjects for chemical engineering that are different than biomedical engineering. Thats pretty annoying to be honest and often wastes an extra year, if you have to start over with these sequences. I sure wish Ga Tech would focus more on making the curriculum more flexible like MIT or other engineering colleges, so students did not spend so many years getting an undergraduate degree. Its hard to schedule classes at GaTech is another difficulty. Freshman at GaTech often end up with about two to three humanities and social sciences, and then sophomore year is super hard, as they are taking all problem set classes. Its just not balanced, is my feeling, but kids get through it, and there is a great school spirit, that goes really help. The community is very strong. Its a supportive place, even with its huge size in computer science and some other engineering majors.

Family friend attends GA Tech. Just completed co-op in Texas. Will take 5 years to graduate. Aerospace engineer major.