<p>Let me use a basic example, and people can expand on it. Dogs are an animal. All dogs are one species. Yet, in dogs it is perfectly acceptable to state or propose that some types or "races" of dogs are better at some tasks than others. You wouldn't send a Whippit to tack down a killer, you send a bloodhound. You don't use a daschund to go hunting with or find bombs or rescue stranded climbers. Different dogs have different skills, both physical and mental. Why is it wrong to say that Asians are better at math or African-Americans are better at physical feats? Obviously you will have the occasional chihuahua that has a killer nose and beats a blood hound any day of the week, but generally the trait follows the breed. Why can't we admit or believe the same things in humans?</p>
<p>Note: I do not personally believe/not believe in the above, I am purely posting it for discussion. PLEASE, no personal attacks. Attack the logic or reasoning if you wish, I havn't spent much time thinking on it (see the first sentence). Also, I didn't mention much about gender, but there are also differences there, just not as pronounced.</p>
<p>I'm white and I'm good at nothing. If I were a dog, I'd probably be that one lazy fat dog that only moves to get some food. Though, i WISH i were a bulldog...:(</p>
<p>The difference is quite clear. You can analyze a cocker spaniel and a great dane and see clear differences in things like bone structure. They are clearly different. Such is not the case with humans. People of different races have much more in common - biologically, genetically, mentally - than different types of dogs. Different races are more accurately like yellow labs and black labs, or poodles with white fur and poodles with black fur. The furthest your analogy can accurately be used is in comparing man with gorilla. </p>
<p>A cocker spaniel will never run a race like a greyhound, but an African-American can receive a 1600 on the SAT and an Asian (like Yao Ming) can be a star basketball player. </p>
<p>Regarding gender bias, the case is a bit different, for real differences between men and women do exist. However, the majority of these differences would appear to be physical, and there is no evidence to point towards any inherent deficiencies in females. </p>
<p>So, to put it simply, your premise is flawed, and, to most people, offensive.</p>
<p>Hey, patches, thanks for NOT READING ALL OF MY POST. If you will read the bottom portion, you will see this is not "my premise" it is one I am merely presenting as a topic of discussion. I don't support it. And the analogy is more apt than different types of labs or gorillas. All dogs are of one species as are humans. I talked about more than just physical abilities as well. And even among humans, there are physical differences between different "races" of people. So let's focus more on mental abilities, if it makes people more comfortable. Different species of dog are clearly smarter, why can't the same be said of humans?</p>
<p>Calm down. That was in no way a personal attack on you. I read your post, and responded to the premise on which it was based. Whatever you personally believe is irrelevant. I was merely discussing the topic.</p>
<p>And, again, there are not different "species" of humans. Physical differences among races are the same as physical differences within a species of dog, as I already stated. Thus, you cannot apply the fact that different species of dogs are smarter to humanity. It's as simple as that.</p>
<p>Now, allow me to add my own post script: PLEASE, do not take this personally. I am dicussing your topic, not you.</p>
<p>Once upon a time in america, black labs were not considered to have the aptitude to play quarterback in pro footbal. It was thought that White labs were much better suited to play quarterback.</p>
<p>Yellow labs were considered to short to play basketball, then along came Yao Ming</p>
<p>One of the points was that there aren't different species of humans just as there aren't different species of dog. I think that sort of negates your second point, although I don't know if I fully understood it. You agree with the physical differences but say that they disprove any possible mental difference? I can see how they may not prove them, but the physical differences being there certainly wouldn't disprove.</p>
<p>Sorry I jumped to conclusions, patches. I'm sure you know how it is when posting a controversial topic that people tend to resort to personal attacks so I was just prepared for the worse. Sorry again! We cool? ;)</p>
<p>Oh, and in regards to the Yao/lab comment, I know what you're trying to do and I don't like it. There are over one BILLION Chinese people and the fact that one is tall disproves the original posts point? The post and hypothesis already accounted for exceptions.</p>
<p>The species argument is necessarily incomprehensible, due mostly to the fact that my knowledge of biology does not extend beyond my freshman year of high school. Because of this, I won't speak any more of biology :)</p>
<p>Let me just add a couple of things, then, which seems especially fitting since this is all based on circumstancial hypothoses: </p>
<p>(1) The physical differences between different breeds of dogs is much greater than any between races of humans; and, most importantly,</p>
<p>(2) The potential for growth and self-improvement in humans is much greater. Because of this, even if real deficiencies may exist in certain races (which I firmly reject, because, ultimately, that must be proven through real science, not analogies or hypothoses), we should not focus on them, for that may create a feeling of inadequacy in those among them who have extraordinary ability, thus preventing them from fulfilling their potential.</p>
<p>Other than that, I don't think there's much to add on my position.</p>
<p>The kids that are best at math at my high school--which has a high asian population-- are not Asian. In the last Olympics, white runners took most of the gold and silver medals in short distance speed races.</p>
<p>Patches, those are points which I can't argue against. And since there is no conclusive answer to this premise/question/hypotheses, I think you've put forth a very good response.
itsallgood, the kids that are best at math at my high school are all Asian. The olympics are just as much a result of access to steroids as genetics.</p>
<p>Patrick, you made general statements about asians and math, and blacks and sports in your original post. They were your examples. Neither seems as universally true as you believed.</p>
<p>itsallgood, I do not support these beliefs, I am just posting them for discusion. It is impossible to not make generalities. I could have used "almost all" a few more times, but I thought the good people on the Harvard forum would be able to realize that there are exceptions to every rule but that doesn't mean the entire hypothesis should be disregarded.</p>
<p>Edit: In other words, the post wasn't claiming universal truths, but rather general ones.</p>
<p>Obviously, bulldogs (especially blue ones) are good-for-nothing.</p>
<p>More seriously, if I'm not mistaken, I think there are subspecies of Canis familiaris, so I can't agree that the extent of natural variation among humans is analogous to those of dogs.</p>
<p>But it's a very interesting idea, and something that people should find a sound biological basis for, if it really does exist.</p>
<p>Give Me Harvard -- Your first comment: Not funny.</p>
<p>Patrick -- What's your reasoning for wanting to discuss such a controversial topic? You either truly believe this dog BS, or you're playing the devil's advocate... Why are you disguising it as "not '[your] premise,'" when you could actually take a real stance on the issue? That would seem more ballsy and would provide a reason to be having this sort of debate/discussion.</p>
<p>Dogs are breed to have different qualitites. For example, the fox terrier was breed to dig holes and hunt rodents (Sorry, I have a fox terrier - he's adorable - so that's the breed I am most familiar with). After many many years of breeding, these desired qualities emerge. Humans are not breed with specific characteristics in mind. Also, someone said that there are physical differences between races. Maybe you were thinking of skin coloring? As far as I've heard, the skeleton for a white person is the same as a skeleton for a black person. :)</p>
<p>lol it's ok. Bring it on; I actually enjoy this Harvard/Yale rivalry deal.
But I can't get too deep into it, seeing as I applied to both schools.</p>