Why is there crapshot in MIT admissions???

Colleges and Universities A-Z Massachusetts Institute of Technology
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<p>pebbles, I think I know that all studies have limitations and slants. The Univ of Florida Center of Measuring Univ Performance or some such has another way of coming up with the top univs, etc etc. We can reliably conclude Harvard is at the top of the heap with Stanford and MIT and Columbia right up there, with Y, or P or UPenn close by. Nothing more can be said.</p>

<p>collegealum, I think research is a worthy component but it is not possible at most schools, so no level playing field for access. When kids do research outside their own school, I become very suspicious, it becomes like the essay, who wrote it or who did it? I think it is a bit contrived. 17 yr olds are not compassionate, hence I am skeptical about community service and 17 yr olds are not normally lab rats.</p>

<p>If tomorrow the schools announced that no weight will be given to community service or research or AP or whatever how many kids will be doing these things?</p>

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<p>"If tomorrow the schools announced that no weight will be given to community service or research or AP or whatever how many kids will be doing these things?"</p>

<p>Well, for people who want to go into science or some academic endeavor, I'm sure they would take the most rigorous courseload possible regardless. I took a college class every summer in high school, even though I was aware most elite schools wouldn't like that. Had I not done so, I probably would have wanted to try research (although I hated the idea of trying to fit research in on weekends.) At some high schools, it's part of the culture to do research. As I said, like 95% of the people from my high school did research. Most of them planned to go to state school because of financial reasons, and so doing research didn't help them at all. </p>

<p>Admittedly, you kind of take high school/undergrad research with a grain of salt. Unless they publish a 1st author paper (which is rare even for an undergrad,) there is no proof that they were completely engaged in the project (especially the copious time spent troubleshooting when trying to develop a model at the beginning of a project). However, it's reasonable to assume that the person ran the experiments they say they did on their own. Also, they should be able to show that they understand what the point of their experiments in the context of literature. I think this would come out of a recommendation. It's like a very advanced laboratory class.</p>

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<p>Life definetely isn't fair, and that's just how it is. </p>

<p>If you have a great opportunity to work at a world class laboratory with a great professor and learn loads and win some competitions, and you go through with it and work very very hard, in the eyes of MIT, I'm willing to bet it will be a plus on your application, even if your parents had connections. </p>

<p>The truth is that many of my MIT friends on my hall have parents who are connected in one way or another to some or other super advantageous thing. </p>

<p>Also these scientists who these kids are working with usually write recommendation letters that I imagine MIT takes for granted. Afterall, professor recs are used for grad school, faculty positions, you name it, so it's in an academics advantage to keep face with the community.</p>

<p>Also while some parts of that article in the NY Times about the Intel Finalists may have some slight truth, it's just showing the negative side. The good side is that a lot of kids do work very hard. And most of those kids who appeared to just "ride a wave" are actually very smart.</p>

<p>I remember last year at the Siemens Competition national finals, all 12 of us finalists had big connections to famous profs/laboratories in some way or other. But the truth is that everyone there knew their project damn well, many of us came up with our own project, etc. And yes, these projects weren't just tinkering with someone's project, they were full fledged, publish level projects that we designed ourselves. And a LOT of the regional and semifinal level student projects are also self-designed. I know MIT takes this into account because when I emailed them to notify my ranking in the competition, they told me they follow the competition results themselves and map the winners to their applicant pool themselves.</p>

<p>People like to think that your life results should correspond to the amount of work you put in. While this may be true for the majority of cases, at the top, it's wise to remember that no matter how hard you work, how hard you push, and how much you try, there is always a couple people who will work a fraction less, push a lot less harder, and get way further than you. Once you just accept this, then you can move on and do awesome stuff.</p>

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<p>So . . . let me get this straight. The CCers here claim in their chance threads that they have done some research. Are you saying most did the research without the compassion for science? You mean they are doing it just because it looks good in apps? wt f?? And here I am thinking otherwise . . . do MIT admissions officers know this?????
Look: What exactly is important to MIT? Here is collegealum saying he got into Caltech and MIT without research and there's differential who did Siemens and got into Caltech and MIT.</p>

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<p>I actually did not get into Caltech. Even if I had gotten better grades, I would not have gotten in. Why? I think it's again, the concept of match. My approach to solving problems, etc is way more in gear with the approach that many at MIT have compared to Caltech. This would have resulted in unhappyness. Of course, I would probably have done pretty well there since they've got certain labs that I would love to work for. On the other hand, I've meshed directly with MIT much better than I could have expected (at least up to this point), and I've found that all the faculty I wanted to work for share a similar philosophy about what problems I want to solve and how to solve them.</p>

<p>IMO, MIT is looking for people who didn't give a damn about what MIT thought or cared about. The easiest way to test yourself is to ask yourself, tomorrow morning you get into MIT. Then what? Assuming you go to classes and do hw by default. What's your big plan? Are you actually doing anything? </p>

<p>Oh and of course there are PLENTY of students who do research without any actual interest. If you're really passionate about your research you can easily beat out all these other kids (and if you still can't, then I guess you lose, sucks I guess, but that's life). Again, life isn't fair. The only way to make sure you come out on top is to just make yourself 5x faster, smarter, and just more clever'er then everyone else in the room (and then some after that too).</p>

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<p>I see. But wait. What problems did you solve/philosophy did you have that Caltech did not "like" and MIT "'liked". What do they like? How did MIT know your concept of problem solving matched theirs? How did Caltech differentiate? See, these are the stuff I don't get.</p>

<p>My courcelor says this Person A was really good that he broke the damn curve of every test in math classes. He was ultra smart, but was rejected from MIT. I am sure MIT had similar applicants how looked "hella" smart with 2300+ SAT, 4.0 GPA and research and ECs and all the awesome crap, but got rejected. Why? What was wrong with them? Give a real life examples and tell me what went wrong with them.</p>

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<p>"Look: What exactly is important to MIT? Here is collegealum saying he got into Caltech and MIT without research and there's differential who did Siemens and got into Caltech and MIT."</p>

<p>Well, first of all, there is a disclaimer that I got in 11 years ago, so things may have changed. (I don't think so about research, though.) Even though I didn't do research, all my recs that said I was the best student they had ever seen and I came from a school that sends about 10-15 to MIT per year, sort of like Bronx Science. Also, I had got in the top 2 in state competitions in math, science, and social science and captained our school's science team. (Some of these were team awards, so the hard part was beating out all your classmates to make the team.) </p>

<p>When I got in, the profile of the MIT student was someone who took the most advanced curriculum they could find, aced that, and then took classes in their breaks to get some extra exposure to advanced material. Also, they generally (though not always) had near-perfect test scores. (But most of these tests are easy to ace if you were a great student.) I don't think people did it because they expected to be rewarded by college admissions, although people may have been upset that some colleges don't have values that match their own. </p>

<p>One thing that I think has changed is that the guys that were super-advanced with computers but were not that great of a student can now get into MIT. Before, they rarely would tolerate anything less than an "A" in math and science no matter how advanced the class was you were taking.</p>

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<p>collegealum, there would always be some students who would do science or comm service if tomorrow the schools started disregarding them. I am not talking of exceptions. The vast majority of students in the US do no research; the vast majority do not take a single AP class; the norm for MIT last year was 4 or 5. All of you are talking from small samples, of the people you know, of the school you went to, etc etc etc. The Siemens and Intel people are few, I mean the real serious ones. Let me argue from another small sample size. I know of 8 Indian families with lab/research connections who egged on their kids to do research, had their colleagues/profs write these glowing letters and manage Intel projects, 6 got into MIT, 3 now in finance (which is norm for MIT grads these days) other 3 drifting, with no interest in life. Let's not idealize admissions and the fab students too much. We will know outcomes in a few decades and I suggest if we disenthrall ourselves from the merely contemporary we will find we await a shock.</p>

<p>Differentail, much of what I want to say to you is above but one thing: I am real disappointed at the cliche, life is not fair. It is our obligation to try to make it so. Need I say more?</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Why? What was wrong with them?

[/quote]

There was likely nothing "wrong" with them. MIT itself says that about 70% of applicants are qualified to be at MIT, which implies that the process is one of selection rather than rejection. In most cases, there's nothing wrong with an application that leads to selection, but there's not something selectable about it -- it doesn't jump out and catch the admissions officer's eye.</p>

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<p>molliebatmit, were you trying to say "nothing wrong with an application that leads to non-selection"?</p>

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<p>A news item relevant to this debate.<br>
Nobel winner in 'racist' claim row
<a href="http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/science/10/18/science.race/index.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/science/10/18/science.race/index.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>For the sake of maintaining rational discourse, I'm not going to acknowledge innovator's link... Sorry, but it's a can of worms I'm not going to be the one to open is all. :P</p>

<hr>

<p>Anyway, what I've been picking up is what Mollie has said: many people who apply to MIT are perfectly acceptable, but they just don't stick out or make the cut. I was at an info session this weekend (Matt McGann was there), and Matt pretty much echoed Mollie to the letter, except he said 75% instead of 70.</p>

<p>That's why there's so much emphasis on getting to know applicants as people; without that, they'd be faced with an impossible choice of randomly picking about one person per seven applicants almost at random. (Percent accepted : percent acceptable.; 10:70 = 1:7) That personal factor is the only way to differentiate between such a huge pack of viable frosh.</p>

<p>At least as far as I can discern.</p>

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<p>No I don't think it's anyone's obligation to make life fair for everyone. For starters, it can't be done in the world we live in because everyone starts off in a different playing field. Second, it's not MIT's responsibility to take the entire burden of anything on their shoulders. </p>

<p>I see MIT first and foremost as a research institution, with a responsiblity to society to produce the best and brightest engineers/scientists/etc and then do the research/development to help advance civilization.</p>

<p>Besides, MIT already goes a great length to try and even the playing field. If some disadvataged person wants to get from point A to B and has to work a lot harder than the kids with advantages, well that's life, and either that kid is going to work really really hard, or he's not going to get to point B. </p>

<p>The main point of these types of discussion boards on CC that helps applicants is not philosophical/idealistic discussions about what should be, because it doesn't actually get anyone anywhere (MIT Admissions policies are decided by faculty and the admins, and no discussion on CC is going to change that). People giving very practical advice on the other hand, will actually help them. I think reminding students that life isn't fair is crucial. Otherwise you'll end up with kids at MIT whining and *****ing about how the kid accross the hall is a natural mathematical genius who always outdoes them with no effort.</p>

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<p>innovator, thanks for the story/link. For the last 30 yrs or so funding for research into whether there in fact are race differences in intelligence has been cut off whilst funding for the neoMarxist, let's create harmony, politically left wing, minority/feminist views has been plentiful. There must be serious and scientific exploration of all possibilities. Dr. Watson deserves a platform as did Jensen and Murray.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
He went on to say that although he hoped everyone was equal, "people who have to deal with black employees find this not true".

[/quote]
</p>

<p>come ON though, ramaswami. Is this a statement of science or is it a statement of prejudice?</p>

<p>We shouldn't blindly jump on the bandwagon of anyone who champions our cause. He's pretty old, he might be getting a little loose in the head. Scientific organizations and universities are not obligated to support any cause, much less the unpopular money sink projects that will bring bad press, of course. I suspect a lot of it has to do with our inability to come up with an experiment that could at all yield any conclusive results along these lines. Even physics experiments get cut because of improbable success.</p>

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<h2>gaspar: "Anyway, what I've been picking up is what Mollie has said: many people who apply to MIT are perfectly acceptable, but they just don't stick out or make the cut. I was at an info session this weekend (Matt McGann was there), and Matt pretty much echoed Mollie to the letter, except he said 75% instead of 70."</h2>

<p>I don't find the 70% qualified statement particularly meaningful. Yeah, probably 70% of people applying could pass enough classes to graduate. I think the issue is that people disagree about what should make people stand out in the admissions process. For example, some people think a 650 and an 800 on the math score mean the same thing. Some people think community service should not count at all in admissions at a technical place like MIT. Others think that getting a few "B"'s in math and science is irrelevant. Even if you think that these things should be considered, how people weight these factors can differ significantly.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
For example, some people think a 650 and an 800 on the math score mean the same thing. Some people think community service should not count at all in admissions at a technical place like MIT. Others think that getting a few "B"'s in math and science is irrelevant. Even if you think that these things should be considered, how people weight these factors can differ significantly.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I think that is the nub of the discussion. Of course the MIT admission committee, under the leadership of the MIT administration, gets to decide policies related to these issues at MIT, and has the difficult task of applying those policies to thousands of distinct admission files each year. Other colleges may have different policies, or may apply rather similar policies to very similar admission files in a manner inconsistent with MIT's decisions. </p>

<p>What a student can do about this this year, next year, or the year after is </p>

<p>1) prepare well in high school for a challenging academic environment in college and living constructively in a residential college community, </p>

<p>2) take care to fill out application forms in a way that honestly reflects the best the student has to offer to each college, </p>

<p>3) apply WIDELY, making sure to apply to "safety" colleges, and </p>

<p>4) relax and enjoy high school while waiting for admission results. </p>

<p>It may be that further reform is needed in college admission practices, but meanwhile each high school student has to be ruthlessly realistic about what admission committees actually do, regardless of the student's opinion about what committees ought to do. </p>

<p>Good luck to this year's applicants.</p>

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<p>Fat chance to "relax"
This is our life we are talking about. No relaxing here.
Wither way, if 70% were qualified, then what should students do to "stand out" or catch the admisssions officer's eye?
Can the "catch" be non academic or non science related? (for instance religious activities)?</p>

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<p>
[quote]
This is our life we are talking about. No relaxing here.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>
[quote=Ben Jones, MIT admission officer]
When I was on the road, kids asked me repeatedly whether or not they should take a given AP class.</p>

<pre><code>"Well," I'd respond, "would you be taking it because you genuinely want to, or simply because you think it will get you into college?"

Sometimes they didn't know the difference, which is a tragedy that deserves its own thread.

[/quote]

</code></pre>

<p><a href="http://www.mitadmissions.org/topics/before/recommended_high_school_preparation/many_ways_to_define_the_best.shtml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.mitadmissions.org/topics/before/recommended_high_school_preparation/many_ways_to_define_the_best.shtml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>
[quote]
The main point of these types of discussion boards on CC that helps applicants is not philosophical/idealistic discussions about what should be, because it doesn't actually get anyone anywhere (MIT Admissions policies are decided by faculty and the admins, and no discussion on CC is going to change that). People giving very practical advice on the other hand, will actually help them. I think reminding students that life isn't fair is crucial.

[/quote]
Well said, differential.</p>

<p>And yes, AshwinSundar, the "catch" can be non-academic or non-science related. I can share the experience with which I am most familiar.</p>

<p>My son didn't have any research work on his resume when he applied to MIT three years ago. His academic qualifications were great, so it was clear he was "one of the 70%". What he had which may have helped him stand out was a consistent record of multiple years of meaningful participation in a couple activities he really loved and felt a commitment to and a responsibility for (the school robotics team (which was engineering-related) and a service project he'd led for years working with WW II veterans (which was non-academic)). Whatever else was going on in his life, those two things were always top priorities. He wasn't doing them for MIT or for any other school, he was doing them because they brought him personal satisfaction. He also spent much free time doing photography and artwork, and was able to point to his online galleries in his application. It seemed to me he used his creative artwork time as his relaxation.</p>

<p>If you have something you've spent a significant amount of meaningful time on, especially if it involves helping make the world a better place somehow, and are able to communicate your commitment to it through your application, I suspect you will "stand out" in the applications reviews.</p>