<p>Actually on the thread OKLA started on this specific topic, a couple of us said basically what you did, just not as well. I would only clarify the part in your statement above about undergraduate research at AAU universities. It is a mixed bag, at least in the sciences, since many of the AAU schools have very large and prestigious graduate programs where it is sometimes difficult for undergrads to do meaningful work. Running a research group of 20, 30 even 40 or more grad students and post docs is not all that different from managing a small company, and the profs are extremely busy running the show. Not a lot of time to have undergrads around doing much more than their work-study assignment of washing labware or whatever. Again, many exceptions, but at least at the two top 10 chem programs I have been associated with when I was post-undergrad, there were virtually no undergrads doing research. Tulane, on the other hand, was mostly undergrads doing research.</p>
<p>I definitely agree, sometimes graduate research productivity is not a strong indicator of undergraduate research availibilty. I was just mainly disgusted by this statement:
I’m sure Darmouth, Notre Dame, and Tufts have great undergrad research comparable to Tulane’s.</p>
<p>Yes, I completely agree, as you can see from the post I made on the other thread. I personally know many who have done research in chemistry as undergrads at Dartmouth and Notre Dame, and I am sure Tufts is similar. I don’t know how many of them got their names on papers out of it, but I would be shocked if a fair number didn’t.</p>
<p>The reason I keep bringing that up, besides the obvious educational benefit and pride it brings, is that it is a huge factor for getting into the best grad schools. Assuming you have the grades and GRE scores, having a research paper(s) published and having a recommendation that is from a prof you have worked that closely with goes a very long way.</p>
<p>PAGrok: Being a member of a certain Country Club has its priviledge and prestigous. Not everyone is invited and not everyone can qualify and you have said it yourself. AAU is like that Country Club. You may say anything you want but the fact remains if not a member then you are not a member. </p>
<p>PAGrok said: “We can probably all agree that the Undergraduate education and research that goes on at AAU universities is probably good, but not above other schools who are not in AAU.”</p>
<p>I would say as follows: here are the facts that you need to ponder upon to counter your arguments:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Dont you think that Darmouth, Tufts and the gang, etc that do not belong to AAU have given thought or perhaps tried to get into AAU? remember AAU is prestigous and not everyone can get in. </p></li>
<li><p>AAU is a symbol of Prestigous and if they take it away from Tulane (or its members) then certainly Tulane will have nothing or becoming less prestigous.</p></li>
<li><p>Darmouth, Tufts and the gang have the ranking from UNSWR while Tulane has AAU, SURA, etc. IF Tulane does not have the AAU. SURA, etc then do you think Tulane can still claim or be considered as Prestigous School?</p></li>
<li><p>Tulane puts AAU in its website and it means something and Tulane is very proud of such achievements. Without those things (AAU, SURA, etc) then Tulane is like just like any other school from the South. STOP and Imagine for a while, in the UNSWR ranking Tulane is not TOP 10 then Tulane does not have AAU, SURA, etc…what do you think will happen? THINK ABOUT it…</p></li>
<li><p>To be in AAU, Tulane has worked hard to earn and also to maintain it. IF without good maintainance, AAU certainly will drop Tulane just like that.</p></li>
<li><p>You may be disgusted or does not like what I have said. BUT, the fact remains that RANKING means nothing (I have said it many times) and some schools maybe ahead of Tulane but Tulane has AAU, SURA. Once again, you may say anything but not everyone can join exclusive country club. IT is by invitation only. </p></li>
<li><p>If one has graduated from Tulane, she or he can be proud because it is a duly prestigous school because Tulane has been recognized and has joined the exclusive country club namely AAU, SURA etc. </p></li>
</ol>
<p>Lastly and more importantly, Ranking where art thou? some schools may have the ranking but Tulane has the prestigous status because of those things. Have a good Week-End.</p>
<p>USNWR rankings are only about undergrad while the AAU is much more about a school having a wide range of graduate programs to go along with their undergraduate majors. Therefore Dartmouth College (and it is Dartmouth, Okla, not Darmouth) cannot belong unless they become a true university, not a college. Yet Dartmouth undergrads do research and have papers published all the time, and are among the brightest students in the world at one of the best schools there is. The difference historically, for those not familiar, is that colleges offer few or no graduate degrees.</p>
<p>It is fine to be proud of the fact that Tulane is in the AAU, but it is only somewhat related to the availability of research opportunities at any school. Many, many, many schools not in AAU offer great research opportunities that get published in the same journals as the schools in the AAU. I should know, for years I regularly visited campuses and their labs as part of my job. It was mostly in chemistry with some in biochemistry and medical labs, but I suspect that if these schools had strong research in these areas they also did in other areas, even unrelated ones. In fact, given the much smaller investment needed, I suspect they have been doing research in other areas to an even greater degree in some cases. Physics, chemistry and medicine are expensive.</p>
<p>Like I said, let’s certainly be proud of Tulane being in the AAU. It is great for the school. But you started out wondering why USNWR didn’t use this as part of their rankings. Well, for the reasons stated above it wouldn’t be fair for the undergraduate rankings. Also, not every student is interested in doing research as an undergrad, and it might not even apply to their major in any meaningful way. Business, philosophy, theater…I cannot see why a school’s research ability would be meaningful to these students, and therefore the ranking shouldn’t reflect this. USNWR is completely flawed, but at least they had the right premise in that they looked for factors they thought reflected on the school in general, not in one area or another. They have specific rankings for certain degree programs, although these are BS as well.</p>
<p>I think you came closer to the truth when you said that students that ARE interested in doing research should dig into a school and see what the opportunities are. Tulane really shines when a student does that. That really is the whole point. I just think you are a bit off base pushing this AAU angle. If it is a country club, then it is a country club that bases admissions more on grad program characteristics, not undergrad. Tulane just happens to be in a position where it is strong enough in those areas to qualify, but is still wide open to undergrad participation. That’s what we need to push and what you seem to actually admire.</p>
<p>Fallen Chemist: since I dont believe in Ranking by any organization (USNWR, Forbes, NY Times, etc) while others rely heavily on the ranking, I have to go by something else in order to look for school. My S has done and believed the same thing. He has looked deeper to find a school that will taylor/suit his needs (reseach, etc). That means eventhough the AAU is only for grad school but to a certain degree the undergrad students certainly can enjoy and take research provided at that school too. Especially, for Junior and Senior as they can do research or must do one in order to graduate. BME has provided opportunity for Junior and Senior to take part in Research. </p>
<p>Getting a stamp from AAU means a lot and it is a selling point also, especially where the ranking is not in Top 10. So, yes I agree that’s what we need to push and inform general public and/or prospective students. Life is good not only in Pembroke Lane but also in Tulane and NOLA.</p>
<p>I agree with that, OKLA. Certainly the AAU “stamp” does send the message that serious research goes on at that school across a wide range of disciplines. What it cannot tell a person is how easily and meaningfully a typical undergrad can participate in that research, which is where people like us come in to spread the word about Tulane. Of course there are many other schools where a similar experience can be had, and that’s a good thing! But there is little question in my mind and personal observations that Tulane is one of the better places where high level research opportunities and the undergraduate experience intersect.</p>
<p>I will look for great things from your son as he progresses at Tulane. It certainly sounds like he has found a great second home there.</p>
<p>Okla – how weird that you think all rankings (unswr etc.) are bogus but then you keep harping on how great the AAU designation is. </p>
<p>AAU membership is…a ranking. And some people think that AAU’s ranking criteria (like all other ranking criteria) are flawed. Syracuse and the University of Nebraska, for example.</p>
<p>As much as people want to dump on the rankings, they are used and useful. Schools, including Tulane, tout when they have good rankings and complain/argue when they get bad rankings. </p>
<p>Last, Tulane’s playbook is exactly the same MO that has been used by other schools (WUSTL, USC, Vandy, BC, etc.) to move up in the usnwr rankings. </p>
<p>Studies show that most college enrollment decisions are a function of (i) reputation and (ii) cost of attendance. Tulane is working hard on #2 in order to improve #1. Which is a good thing, imo, since I’m paying to send one of my kids to TU.</p>
<p>northwesty - I agree that rankings are a fact of life, and USNWR the most cited, no matter how flawed they are. They are certainly used. I am not sure I agree that they are useful, and to whatever degree they are I definitely think that the harm they do completely outweighs whatever utility they have. But we are all welcome to our opinion on this of course.</p>
<p>You can believe me or not, but I would be saying the same thing about the USNWR rankings even if Tulane were in the top 10. Maybe it is the scientist in me, but a flawed premise (or in this case multiple flawed premises) is just that. The major premise in this case being you can quantify and rank a concept as undefinable as a “best university”, and then numerous assumptions regarding correlations between various statistics and how they reflect quality. Some are demonstratively false, others have no support as correlative but are just assumed to be.</p>
<p>But no doubt, like a lot of things in life, various schools make decisions with the rankings in mind since they are used by many. Is it the driving force behind most decisions at Tulane regarding admissions, scholarships, etc? I really don’t think so, but in any case having rising quality of the recent classes, better retention, and generous scholarships can only be good things, rankings notwithstanding.</p>
<p>I don’t know a ton about the AAU’s inner workings, but I get the impression they are not as equivalent to a ranking system as they are to an accreditation system of sorts. If you have the research programs and facilities and funding to meet a certain standard, then you are “in”. Otherwise not, I guess. I have no idea how political this gets, or what other factors may be involved.</p>
<p>northwesty: You said: "how weird that you think all rankings (unswr etc.) are bogus but then you keep harping on how great the AAU designation is. </p>
<p>AAU membership is…a ranking. And some people think that AAU’s ranking criteria (like all other ranking criteria) are flawed. Syracuse and the University of Nebraska, for example."</p>
<p>I would say this: AAU is not Ranking. IF yes then kindly elaborate and tell me who are in the Top 10? The answer is none.</p>
<p>In addition, I did not say all ranking (s) is/are bogus. I just dont believe in Ranking, period. For me and my S, find the right school has to have holistic approach too. That is we have to look beyond ranking and look into a broad picture of the school with its programs (major/minor being offered), research, association, credentials, scholarships (merit aids, grants, etc), location, tuition and fees, etc. Do not just stop at the ranking since the Ranking does not tell you a lot. But, who is stopping them if they want to believe in Ranking. To give an example, according the ranking, Univ. of Chicago is #5 (Top 10), but if anyone wants to study electrical engineering or hospitality management, the Univ. of Chicago does not offer any of those. So, ranking does not mean anything. Generally speaking, do you think when anyone wants to apply for college they just look at the ranking first then choose the major/minor? or they dont look at the programs, research as a whole and just base on the Ranking? how about the merit aids, grants (financial situation)? IF, they do look at those things then Ranking will be meaningless. More importantly, since ranking from USNWR does not tell you about the research, major/minor (school programs), school credentials, merit aids and grants, etc. then why bother basing the decision solely on the Ranking? Ranking where art thou…???</p>
<p>northwesty: what’s wrong with Iowa State? you dont like their corn?..LOL anyhow, I just want to add that undergraduate students at Tulane also can have a terrific experience with the research. In fact, it is required that all students to participate in Reseach in order to get their undergraduate degree. Here is the quotation from Tulane website, under Research:</p>
<p>Undergraduate Research</p>
<p>One of the distinctive features of Tulane’s undergraduate program is the requirement that all students participate in year-long individual research project (in addition to the team design projects).</p>
<p>Although individual research projects, including an undergraduate thesis and public oral presentation, have been a part of Tulane’s undergraduate curriculum in Biomedical Engineering since 1977, we have only recently made the conference abstracts available (since 2001). Beginning in 2003, we have hosted an Undergraduate Research and Design Conference, with an abstract booklet. The links below open PDF files with abstracts and conference proceedings.</p>
<p>So, for you’all (undergraduate and grad students) that are into Research, Tulane is a fantastic school and you can’t go wrong with their research since it has been stamped by AAU for approval.</p>
<p>Ok, now this I find a little odd. Maybe it is just me, but your logic just seems off. It is a bit of “All goats are mammals, All people are mammals, therefore are people are goats”. You are saying AAU is a club, rankings are a club, therefore AAU is a ranking. Sorry, that is a logical fallacy. Ranking by definition puts things in a defined order, assigns quantitative criteria to various attributes. To the best of my knowledge AAU does not do that.</p>
<p>BTW, Iowa State has some truly excellent research programs, and not just in Agriculture. I don’t know about today, I haven’t looked in a while. But their graduate chemistry program was top 10 at one point not all that long ago. Not that rankings mean anything, lol.</p>
<p>FC – I really don’t care about Okla’s obsession with the AAU, since its connection and relevance to most undergraduates is slim at best. But since we’re talking about it, it is clear that Tulane thinks it is a ranking – in the top 63 research universities. Just like Tulane says it is in the top 2% for research in the Carnegie rankings.</p>
<p>Each of those groups has its own criteria for membership/ranking. And those criteria, like the criteria of usnwr, are objected to by those who don’t fare well in them. In the AAU’s case, former members Nebraska and Syracuse say that. From TU’s website: </p>
<p>“The university is a member of the prestigious Association of American Universities, a select group of the 63 leading research universities in the United States and Canada with preeminent programs of graduate and professional education and scholarly research. Tulane also is ranked by the Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching as a university with very high research activity. Of more than 4,300 higher educational institutions rated by the foundation, Tulane remains in a prestigious category that includes only 2 percent of universities nationwide.”</p>
<p>This is starting to sound like nails on a blackboard. For whatever ranking is or is not worth in the scheme of things, I’d rather it be based on the research opportunities available than the percent of grads donating after graduation. Just sayin’. Now can we let this go already?</p>
<p>Nortwesty: you said this: Tulane thinks it is a ranking – in the top 63 research universities. Just like Tulane says it is in the top 2% for research in the Carnegie rankings.</p>
<p>My comment is this: So Tulane is in the top 2% of AAU? ehm, you know who are those guys in the AAU? Harvard/MIT and the gang (MIT, Harvard, Caltech, Carnegie Mellon, Georgia Tech, Univ of Chicago, etc). So, the top 2% that means Tulane is very prestigous, top 5 in AAU listing.</p>
<p>Am I being obsessed? this is just a discussion and at the same time, I would love to promote Tulane. Therefore, it looks like I am being obsessed (observation by you alone) and that’s Ok. There is nothing wrong with it. Just like any Tulane students that is very proud of wearing Tulane logo/T-Shirts, do you think that they are obsessed?. Or better yet it is not against the law, is it?</p>
<p>Please remember the topic is why Tulane is ranked so badly? and all I have done is opening their eyes that the word so badly is just not correct since Tulane has the stamp by AAU and SURA.</p>
<p>Northwesty - Actually, I would argue that the Tulane site is worded very carefully. They don’t say they are in the top 63, they say that they have been selected by AAU along with 62 others. At least that is what the quote you put up there says. Is that good marketing? Sure. Do they say all other research programs not in the AAU are inferior? Absolutely not. And it looks to me like the Carnegie mention is a statistical fact; that whatever criteria Carnegie uses to categorize research at universities, only 2% met that criteria. Of course they are going to put credible third party opinions out there. Who doesn’t?</p>
<p>Anyway, it is all quite silly in many ways. What this all points out is that there is a lot of solid research going on at Tulane in many areas of study, and all we can add that isn’t obvious is that Tulane is very undergrad oriented when it comes to said research opportunities. Perhaps we can all agree that this is really the point.</p>
<p>I’m moving on. Especially since I don’t care about the AAU.</p>
<p>I DO care about usnwr rankings. I’m glad that Prez Cowen is very focused on improving (some would say manipulating perhaps) Tulane’s future ranking.</p>