Why isn't UIUC in the 'CC Top Universities' section?

<p>UI–Top 20 in US
UVa Down there somewhere</p>

<p>[ARWU</a> 2010](<a href=“http://www.arwu.org/ARWU2010.jsp]ARWU”>http://www.arwu.org/ARWU2010.jsp)</p>

<p>Some reasons from UVa internal study</p>

<p>"A Mixed Standing in the Rankings. While UVA is ranked number 24 by U.S. News &
World Report (USNRW)3, mostly due to its outstanding undergraduate program, UVA
ranks only number 47 for FY 2005 in the key research indicator, namely the NSF ranking
of federal research expenditures4, and does not rank in the top 100 on the Academic
Ranking of World Universities (ARWU) 2006.5 If one looks at the important leading
American universities, it is exceptional that UVA ranks so highly for its undergraduate
program and so modestly as a research university.
The reason for this dichotomy between education and research attainment seems to be the
fact that most science and engineering departments at UVA have remained static or have
actually decreased in faculty size since 1990. We are told that this may have been due to
wrong judgments, to State funding crises and/or bias of some earlier administrators in
favor of humanities rather than science and engineering.
Whatever the circumstances that gave rise to this situation, in the period of the 1990’s to
the present government funding of academic research grew from about $11 billion to $22
billion in constant 2000 dollars. Most leading universities took advantage of the
extraordinary funding opportunities at NSF, NIH, DOE, NASA and other agencies over
this period, enabling significant growth in university income, increasing faculty sizes in
the science, engineering, and medical fields and allowing laboratories to be built with
borrowed funds and amortized from federal overhead payments. Today and in the
foreseeable future, government funding is likely to increase at a much slower rate.</p>

<p>Recovering from Stagnation: Unless the science departments of CLAS achieve
significantly improved rankings, UVA cannot realize its goal of attaining national
standing as a research university. Some of the issues discussed as university-wide at the
end of this report have special relevance to CLAS.
The recent period of reduced and flat budgets and hiring freezes hurt the science
departments at UVA, some more than others. In several cases, departments feel they are
“playing catch-up” and request the resources and faculty lines to regain the sizes they
previously had. We are persuaded that in all cases, there are good strategic arguments
being made based on new scientific directions and current strengths to justify requests for
additional positions. Likewise, departments that fared better during the period of extreme
fiscal constraint also see faculty growth as being essential to retaining or improving their
current national rankings. In both categories, growth in research-active faculty is being
requested. Such growth, if adequate in number, funded and managed well, is probably
the single most important step that can be taken to improve the research standing of
UVA’s CLAS science departments.</p>

<p>Overcoming a History of Disappointment: Without knowing if the faculty comments are
justified or not, The Washington Advisory Group needs to report a widespread sense of
malaise and frustration in the science faculty within CLAS. It derives from the feeling
that UVA’s low standing as a ranking research university is due to a long history of
comparatively low priority for science in the allocation of internal funds.
Various strategic planning efforts in the recent past (and underway now) have not helped
the situation. Stated goals from previous planning efforts, including projected hiring and
fund raising plans, failed to materialize as advertised, leaving departments frustrated and
faculty unwilling to contribute more time to efforts perceived as being unable to achieve
tangible results that benefit their department or their work.</p>

<p>Issue: Departments such as Physics, Math, and Biology have remained
static or have not grown in faculty size since 1990 over a period of time
when federal research awards increased. Most leading universities took
advantage of funding opportunities at NSF, NIH, DOE, NASA and other
agencies over this period. This enabled growth in faculty size in leading
competing universities. Laboratories were built with borrowed funds and
amortized from federal overhead payments. Now UVA has to play catchup,
when government funding is relatively static.
Recommendation: This was a major error in judgment. The Washington
Advisory Group supports UVA’s decision to make the necessary
investments to become a respectable research university. This will involve
a major initiative (described elsewhere) of recruiting research competent
faculty. An important goal is to increase the size of these departments to
the median level of those top 20 or so departments in the country of
comparable size to UVA.
Issue: The relatively low rankings of the very basic disciplines of
Biology, Physics, Chemistry, and Mathematics in CLAS contribute
significantly to the modest current image of UVA as a research university.
Almost every distinguished research university in the country ranks well
in these basic fields. Whatever the historic reasons, UVA cannot achieve
its new goals unless this is corrected.
Recommendation: Develop a plan specific for each of these basic
departments to improve its comparative ranking.</p>

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<p>Lol ■■■■■… take your negative attitude elsewhere, no one appreciates it. What you’re saying is FAR from the truth - to the OP, of COURSE the U of I is a top instituition (especially in engineering and business), and you will have excellent job opportunites after graduation. It doesn’t take a genius to figure that out. Also brah, you’ve been bested by barrons (more than once). :)</p>

<p>@barrons: We can make this a ‘UVa vs UIUC’ discussion, though it won’t justify putting UIUC in the ‘top’ section (only taking UVa out), where it does not belong. But that’s just an aside. I’ll try to respond to the points you’re making:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>I ignore ARWU completely. No world ranking can possibly take into account the diversity of every single institution on the planet and rank them on the same scale. Look where Moscow State University is ranked in mathematics, physics, and chemistry. Nevermind, it’s not even ranked in the last two categories. We’re talking about an institution with the brightest minds of Russia and the most rigorous curriculum in the country which historically proven itself to be among the best. And ARWU won’t even put it alongside some dump like… UC Riverside? </p></li>
<li><p>NSF ranking of federal research expenditures is “the key indicator”? Oh, that’s the one that ranks Ohio State 9th, Harvard 30th, and Yale 31st? Right… Since when do we measure prestige and the quality of education by the amount of money spent?</p></li>
</ol>

<p>I glanced through, but it looks like the rest of the post is an explanation for the rankings. But there’s no need for the explanation. The above two rankings by no means reflect anything in reality. Are you going to go and praise Ohio State above Harvard and Yale? Are you going to claim that UC Riverside is better than Moscow State in… anything?</p>

<p>When it comes to prestige, USNews is the most trusted source (at least from my experience). And it clearly shows UIUC is not considered prestigious. Prestige does not always equal quality of education, and quality of UVa and UIUC can be argued over indefinitely. But one thing’s for sure; when it comes to <em>overall</em> quality, UIUC should not be put together with places like MIT, Stanford, Caltech, Chicago, Berkeley, Duke, etc… the real top institutions.</p>

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<p>And UVa should? lol…</p>

<p>@Deposition: I’m a ■■■■■? Oh right, because CC <em>is</em> adding UIUC as a ‘top’ school? Because people aren’t really testing out of 400-level math classes like crazy? Because we are actually doing very well in Putnam? Because USNews does <em>not</em> rank UIUC at the bottom of top 50 schools?</p>

<p>You’re right, I’m just ■■■■■■■■. Nothing I said is true. You’re attending one of the most prestigious universities in the country. Whatever helps you sleep at night, deluded buddy.</p>

<p>

Read the first sentence again. Besides, UVa is not the one sitting at the bottom of top 50 schools, is it? It’s not the one ranked 15th among the public schools, right? Truth hurts, I know.</p>

<p>P.S. I’m not trying to bash on UIUC. I’ve chosen it over schools that are ranked higher. It’s a great school, with a top engineering program. But I do object when my fellow classmates get so full of themselves and try to put it at the very top. That place is reserved.</p>

<p>Someone’s getting offensive… it’s a shame you had to start off your posting career in such a negative fashion.</p>

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<p>lololololololol</p>

<p>The excessive sarcasm isn’t amusing.</p>

<p>I never said UIUC is one of the “most prestigious universities in the country”… sorry if that’s what you wanted me to say. I’ll repost what I said, because you missed it the first time: </p>

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<p>If you disagree with that, you’re just plain wrong.</p>

<p>You were OK till you added Duke to that list. And all my info about UVa problems comes right from a study UVa paid to have done. The fact that parlayed a nice campus and good location into attracting scores of Ivy rejects does not prove they are providing the best education. Just a nice atmosphere–like the country-clubs from whence many of them came. And plan to return. UVa has produced no Nobel winners and few other scientists of note. It’s a charming finishing school for the well to do. It’s reputation among other academics is all hat no cattle.</p>

<p>barrons - or anyone else - does that group that compiled the university level rankings ( <a href=“http://www.arwu.org/ARWU2010.jsp[/url]”>http://www.arwu.org/ARWU2010.jsp&lt;/a&gt; ) , also have ranking by program , say, economics? Or if there is any other service that ranks programs , I’d be curious where UIUC (and other colleges) ranks in economics.</p>

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<p>brahmin, i agree you are not a ■■■■■. you have said nothing that’s incorrect in this discussion. but i do suggest you change your attitude. do you realize how pompous you sound? you are furthering the stereotype as to why engineers at u of i don’t get along with the rest of the school.</p>

<p>yes engineering is top ranked, and if you are in the college you are likely taking more rigorous coursework than most other majors. and your school probably has higher rates of employment for grads. everyone knows this, including your non-engr classmates. they are not trying to say that u of i is a top school “based on these numbers/stats/rankings,” but rather that u of i was a great choice for them based on how much they enjoy their classes and how much they love their lives while in school. i really think you would be hard pressed to find someone who really thinks their major is more “prestigious” than engr at u of i. people just tend to have pride in their school and the programs they are involved in, so they will say things like “the education major is awesome” even if, according to usnwr or whatever, it is not awesome.</p>

<p>so maybe you are right and u of i doesn’t deserve to be in cc’s top universities, and you have argued all the right points, but you need to back off your fellow students. “the top” certainly is reserved for you, and everyone knows it, but no one likes it shoved in their face.</p>

<p>I was always led to believe that UIUC had a strong math department, hence why I chose it over U of Washington.</p>

<p>Reading this thread has made me feel quite depressed.</p>

<p>Best out now is US News grad dept rankings. UI 18 in Math around 30 in Econ. Wash was 24 in math and unranked for econ.</p>

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<p>Yeah I’m gonna take that back. You seemed like a ■■■■■ because of your low number of posts, and the fact that you were speaking about the U of I so negatively when you said that you went there.</p>

<p>I assume teh cc top colleges is the ones that have the mosxt eyesballs and clicks on this board. But under this criterion, UIUC and UW madison s/ be up . Correct me if I am wrong, but I seem to recall seeing lots of clicks and view in these two colleges - as much as the other colleges on the top colleges list, I think.</p>

<p>It is probably just too hard to add the colleges to this site - let sleeping cc forum stuctures lie, I guess- cc mavens might be thinking.</p>

<p>LOL. He tosses out ARWU and praises US News. Trying just a little bit too hard to sound enlightened there, bud. Something tells me our little friend doesn’t do research in technical fields. There’s a reason Moscow State isn’t higher up - it’s been garbage for over two decades. Researchers know which institutions are good because we run into their papers. Moscow State is practically invisible. They must be hiding all their research so that the capitalists don’t steal it. Yeah, that’s it. Freshman, I’m guessing?</p>

<p>He’s not a ■■■■■, per se. This is just a run-of-the-mill internet clown who thinks bashing his own institution makes him look smart. It’s so unexpected – it must therefore be the thoughts of a genius, right? Too easy to see through. Pretty much what I’d expect from someone who chose the name ‘Brahmin’. Thank you, come again.</p>

<p>Top CC or not, a good school is a good school.</p>

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■■■■■!</p>

<p>What a tool.</p>

<p>Ever since that dang wall went down, Moscow State’s star has fallen!</p>

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■■■■■!</p>

<p>This isn’t 1970.</p>

<p>Let me join your talk for one post :)</p>

<p>Education in Russia is one of it’s main strengths, actually. All the subjects like Biology, Chemistry, Physics, Geometry, Geography etc. are taught on the yearly basis ever since their equivalent of our Middle School. For example, students start learning Calculus in the 9th grade.</p>

<p>To graduate school, each student must pass the Unified National Exam (literal translation), which consists of many individual exams, each focused on one subject. All of the above mentioned subjects are covered, including others like foreign languages, literature, history, etc…</p>

<p>In addition to that, if you’re going to a place like MSU, each department has it’s own exams you need to pass (which are insanely hard, or so I heard). Needless to say, entering freshmen already have a solid base. There is no Calculus sequence, no Physics sequence – it’s all taken care of. Differential equations your freshman year!</p>

<p>Point: Education in Russia is still going strong. Regardless of economy and politics (which is likely the only thing you are exposed to anyway).</p>

<p>====================</p>

<p>Now, education system is still pretty different in Russia. How would a world ranking take all of this into account and compare all of the world’s universities? I have no idea. However, I do know that there are international olympiads that countries participate in.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>International Mathematics Olympiad. Completely dominated by China. Who comes second? Russia. In the last 5 years, it placed higher than USA.</p></li>
<li><p>International Collegiate Programming Contest. Russia completely dominates the charts on this one. Look at the recent contests. In the top 10, you’d always see 4-5 Russian universities there.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>Look at ICPC 2009 results:</p>

<pre><code>(1)St. Petersburg State University of IT Mechanics and Optics, Russia
(2)Tsinghua University, China
(3)St. Petersburg State University, Russia
(4)Saratov State University, Russia
</code></pre>

<p>Last time USA placed first? 1997 (very few people, even schools, had computers at that time in Russia). No explanation needed.</p>

<p>Fun fact: not a single Russian university is ranked in computer science.</p>

<ol>
<li>International Physics / Chemistry Olympiads. Well, these ones are dominated by China again. However, Russia is still ahead of USA on these ones. Especially in Chemistry. By ‘ahead’ I mean more gold medals and students with individual highest scores.</li>
</ol>

<p>Point: Russian students are performing better than American students in academic competitions.</p>

<p>====================</p>

<p>Now, I think the point that Brahmin wanted to make is – no matter how big of a dump Russia is, in your personal opinion, you can’t honestly consider its education to be so pathetic that it’s top university is not even comparable to UC Riverside… Seriously, how ridiculous is that? And comments along the lines of “Moscow State is garbage” are either made by a ■■■■■, somebody lying for a personal benefit, or simply by someone who doesn’t have a slightest clue what Moscow State is. No offense.</p>

<p>On a similar note, in terms of scientific research and publications in Russia, it seems that not many folks are actively participating with the “West” in English-speaking domain. In terms of fundamental research and certain technologies, there are a lot of brilliant work done in the area of chemistry, chemical engineering, physics, etc. However, you would have to dig into Russian publications in order to get access to them. And, not many folks speaks or read Russian…
In my personal opinion, It is not that Russia schools are not good, or its science and technologies are not up to par. Russian needs to do better in “Marketing” itself worldwide and let people know what was already well-known in Russian-speaking communities.</p>

<p>Just my two-cents.</p>