why ivies are usually not so great at eng.

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Why? If the rankings are flawed, as you admitted, then how can you reasonably say that one is better than the other?
You've still admitted that it's a flawed system, so my question still stands, why bother with them? If you were selling oranges to people, would you still sell rotten or bad oranges? By you're reasoning, its ok since they are just a little flawed.</p>

<p>I really wouldnt have such a problem with them if there was perhaps another group that could circulate itself as well as USNWR has, but right now it has a monopoly on the system. You may think it sounds dumb but this is as much a business as anything else and without competition, USNWR has no ryhme or reason to improve itself. Sure Princeton Review is out there but they dont try for the comprehensive rankings USNWR does that I so sorely think are more than misguided.

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<p>Because the fact is, any ranking is inherently flawed. There is no such thing as a perfect ranking.</p>

<p>I think USNews is better than most. There are other rankings. Like Princeton Review. Like Gourman. Like THES. Like the Shanghai Jiao Tong ranking. Yet the fact is, USNews, while flawed, is LESS flawed than the others. I have problems with USNews, but less than I do with the other rankings. </p>

<p>You say that USNews has a monopoly. First of all, I disagree because like I said, there are other rankings out there. And second of all, USNews is dominant (but not a monopoly) precisely because it is a better ranking than the others. Nobody just "handed" USNews the status of dominance. USNews won it because its ranking is better than the others. Still flawed, but less so. </p>

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I'll admit my argument loses validity when comparing #97 to #50 to #2 but anything within the top 20, the differences are so minute that the rankings are worthless (IMO)

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<p>That's exactly my point. What that means is that even you agree that the rankings have SOME validity. For example, I think nobody can seriously dispute that MIT is better than the engineering school that is ranked last. Hence, you can't simply dismiss the rankings as 'dumb' or 'worthless'. They do have some value. Maybe not as much value as some people think they do, but clearly they have some value. </p>

<p>It's like having a compass that is flawed enough that you can't reliably distinguish between true North and NNE, but the compass isn't so far off that it will tell you that North is South. The truth is, there is no such thing as a completely perfect measuring system. Even the most sophisticated multi-million dollar scientific measuring gear has some uncertainty. But they are still good enough to give you a broad idea of what schools are good and what aren't.</p>

<p>See but how long has USNWR (or any other ranking system for that matter) been around? I'm asking because i honestly dont know but...</p>

<p>assuming its maybe..what, last 20 years?...You cant say that the rankings tell us what schools are better (talking about the 20ish range thing i mentioned earlier). It was known that certain schools were better than others for a long time before rankings ever came into existance (unless of course USNWR has been around 100 years, then that kills the whole argument....).</p>

<p>Yale/Harvard/Princeton/MIT have always had outstanding reputations, even in the 1910's. </p>

<p>I DO admit that the ranking is valid for anything beyond about 20 spots according to USNWR but, as I said, anything beyond those spots are already known by other factors</p>

<p>USNews is more reliable than simple public opinion, because the truth is, public opinion is really quite limited. USNews and other rankings give programs that don't have pop-culture name recognition but have otherwise strong academic programs the chance to demonstrate their worth. For example, certain schools like the University of Chicago, Carnegie-Mellon, Rice, and Caltech are all fantastic schools that are unknown by much of the general population. Rankings like USNews demonstrate that these schools deserve to be counted amongst the best schools in the nation. Let's be honest. We both know that if rankings didn't exist, a lot of people would continue to dismiss schools like that because they wouldn't think they were good. A lot of people would continue to believe that the University of Chicago was a no-name city school. Heck, some of my high school teachers had never heard of UChicago. Because USNews exists, you can at least point to the rankings as evidence that UChicago is a good school. Otherwise you would have a far greater time convincing people.</p>

<p>The rankings also serve another useful purpose in that it often drives university administrators to make their school better. Yes, there is some gaming that happens (i.e. so-called "Tufts Syndrome") but for the most part, the rankings are a positive force to getting administrators to improve the schools. By emphasizing things like selectivity, you are incentivizing schools to be increasing selectivity either by marketing themselves in order to get stronger applicants, or offering scholarships to entice the top students to come, or whatever. By examining financial resources, you are encouraging schools to increase spending-per-capita (which generally means getting more funds from alumni donations, research grants, and so forth). </p>

<p>I agree that sometimes these pressures are not always positive, but the sad truth is that without these pressures, many school administrators would simply do nothing at all. At least they get pressured into doing something. That's better than nothing. For example, I remember when Berkeley fell out of the top 25 during the 90's budget crisis, the Berkeley administrators diligently worked to improve the school in order to get the school back into the ranking. I believe that if USNews didn't exist, then none of those improvements would have been made. Unfortunately, for some schools, it takes a kick in the pants like a bad ranking in order to spur them to make things better. It's like using the threat of bad grades to force students to study. If there were no exams and no grades, the truth is, a lot of students would be lazy and never study. </p>

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Yale/Harvard/Princeton/MIT have always had outstanding reputations, even in the 1910's

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<p>The first 3, yes. But not so much MIT. You have to remember, MIT almost went bankrupt at about that time and nearly got acquired by Harvard. MIT's truly became prominent during WW2 and the post-war period. That is when MIT truly became the science and engineering powerhouse that it is now, because of the huge spur of defense spending. You have to understand that MIT is and always has been deeply linked to the Pengaton and to military research, especially with regards to the development of technologies with strong military applications such as radar, missiles, jet airplanes, computers, nuclear energy, and so forth. MIT is deeply intertwined with Lincoln Laboratories and Draper Labs, which are both major military research centers. </p>

<p>This gets into another subject, namely the history of science and technology. In a nutshell, the US has only been a major military power only since WW2, as well as being a major science and technology power since that time. Before WW2, the US military was quite militarily weak (because it didn't need a big military - Canada and Mexico also had small militaries), and, except during wartime, spent very little on the military, compared to the behemoth armies of Europe. For example, during the 1920's, the US had something like the 11th largest army in the world. I believe that even the Netherlands had a bigger and better army at the time. The US had great military POTENTIAL, but chose not to translate that into a powerful military. The UK was, far and away, the strongest military power in the world, chiefly because of its dominant Navy. </p>

<p>Couple that with the fact that before WW2, almost all of the science Nobels were won by Europeans. The Americans won relatively few. For example, while Harvard might be able to boast of having 2 or 3 Nobel laureates on the faculty, numerous universities in Germany would have 5 or more each, and places like Cambridge University would easily have 10 or more. Just look at the Chemistry and Physics Nobels before WW2 and you will see that about half of them were won by Germans. Not to mention all those won by the UK, France, Denmark, the Netherlands, Italy, Switzerland, Sweden, Poland, etc. The US won very few science Nobels before WW2. </p>

<p>In fact, I seem to recall reading that, before WW2, Dutch universities won more science Nobels than all of the US universities put together. And that's just talking about the Dutch. </p>

<p>When did MIT win its first Nobel? In 1944. What was it for? For work in the MIT Radiation Lab...basically for radar. </p>

<p>The point is, by 1910, MIT had clearly not established among the pantheon of the elite. Not even close. The fact is, at that time, the US was not a major science and technology power. At that time, that power lay in Europe. It was in Europe that the major advances were being made. For example, it was in Europe where both quantum physics and the theory of relativity were discovered. It was in Europe where the chemical periodic table was proposed. It was in Europe where radioactivity was first discovered, where the principles of electromagnetism and optics were found, and where the atom was first split (Otto Hahn of Germany). Before the war, American universities were only minor players on the world stage of science.</p>

<p>So the point is, rankings can serve to capture the rise of a certain school. MIT is a very young school, and by 1910, was almost certainly still not considered among the elite. MIT was founded only in 1861. It was a very good American science school by 1910, but that doesn't mean much because the US was not a major science power. The best science minds in America didn't really want to study at MIT - they usually wanted to study in Europe. After all, that's where most of the science was happening. Right now you see lots of foreign nationals choosing to study at American universities. Well, before WW2, lots of Americans chose to study at European universities. </p>

<p>I think maybe the best example of all is Stanford. Stanford is extremely young - founded in 1891. And for the first 50 years of its existence, Stanford was basically a no-name school with very little money and very little prestige. Stanford's rise is intimately connected with the rise of Silicon Valley, yet Silicon Valley didn't even exist until the late 30's and didn't accelerate until the 50's and 60's. Nowadays people obviously recognize Stanford as elite, and it is probably the one school in the world that has the best chance of dethroning Harvard. But 100 years ago, Stanford was clearly not a top school.</p>

<p>So the point of all that is that schools do not "always" have outstanding reputations. Things change all the time. </p>

<p>To give you a last example, before the 40's, MIT had minimal reputation for economics. Now, it is one of the top economics schools in the world, and arguably THE top school. MIT did this through the hard work of building up its economics program - hiring top profs, investing resources, getting top students, and so forth. I now see that MIT is doing the same thing with its political science department. MIT used to have minimal strength in Poli-Sci, but the rankings now indicate that MIT has either a #10 (USNews) or #12 (NRC) ranked poli-sci department. I can also see that as Yale continues to pour money into its business school (the Yale School of Management), it will continue to get better and better. The Yale SOM is far and away the youngest of the top B-schools, having been founded only in 1975. Heck, the Yale SOM has plenty of MBA students who are older than the school itself.</p>

<p>Oh My God------------></p>

<p>What people forget is that if you want to be a top engineer, your best plan is to go to graduate school. And if you go to graduate school, nobody offering you a job will care where you went to undergrad, they'll only look at your graduate degree. So as long as you go to a decent undergrad engineering program that can get you into a good graduate school (graduate admissions rely more on grades, performance, etc. than prestige of your undergrad school) you'll be fine. No need in turning down the #15 engineering school for the #5 simply because of rank.</p>

<p>What about #21 for #1? (From Penn to Berkeley in chemE)?</p>

<p>My own personal opinion:</p>

<p>Engineering is considered "applied"; "vocational" by those who covet the ivory tower paradigm. Some snooty schools, in and out of the Ivy league sports conference, look down their noses at such tradesman type endeavors. But they're scared that if they cut engineering altogether, they would lose a lot of good students to other schools. So a number half-heartedly condescend to offer a marginal program of sorts so they can say they have it. </p>

<p>But by no means do they try hard (ie spend the needed bucks) to excel at it, the way they go after excellence and high standing in the liberal arts subjects. Because they are at heart liberal arts colleges. Forced to offer this vocational program for competitive purposes, not passion.</p>

<p>Regarding rankings, my own uninformed guess is that they overvalue items such as size of university endowment and research funding per capita. Most engineers of my acquaintance would be more interested in the number of engineering majors offered and the breadth and depth of engineering course offerings, engineering coop and design project opportunities,etc. than these other measures. These are critical items but I wonder if US News even considers them at all. I believe most real engineers would prefer schools like RPI, WPI, U Illinois and Georgia Tech to five of the colleges in the Ivy League. They might even prefer Clarkson or Illinois Inst of Technology; not sure about this but possibly.</p>

<p>For one thing, most engineers of my acquaintance would not prefer the emphasis on liberal arts subjects that many of these colleges expect.</p>

<p>I looked at one of the programs recently and they didn't even offer one of the major branches of engineering (Civil) at all. That same school apparently seriously considered cutting their program alogether in the not too distant past. Rather than spending the bucks to actually make it competitive. Instead they folded it into another program within its Arts& Sciences college, I believe.</p>

<p>If you want to see what schools engineers value I'd look at where the engineering firms recruit; not what US News thinks.</p>

<p>These other measures might be relevant to some small niche grad research program that these teenies have carved out for themselves, so they can say they are actually good at something relating to engineering. But they are not highly relevant to the majority of engineering students. IMO.</p>

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I believe most real engineers would prefer schools like RPI, WPI, U Illinois and Georgia Tech to five of the colleges in the Ivy League. They might even prefer Clarkson or Illinois Inst of Technology; not sure about this but possibly.

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<p>To that, I would simply say what I have said before - that many of the engineering students at even the indisputably elite engineering programs are apparently not 'real' engineers. After all, like I said, there are a lot of engineering students at places like MIT, Stanford, and Berkeley who never actually work as engineers, preferring instead to work as management consultants or bankers. MIT freely admits that out of its largest department, EECS, about 25% of its undergrads take jobs in consulting and banking, not as engineers. And I'm sure that number doesn't include the many other EECS students who would have gone into consulting or banking but didn't get a good offer. </p>

<p>You would think that if any school's students would be "real" engineers, it would be the engineering students at MIT. Yet if even MIT has lots of engineering students who aren't "real" engineers, then just imagine what it must be like at the lesser engineering schools.</p>

<p>"You would think that if any school's students would be "real" engineers, it would be the engineering students at MIT. "</p>

<p>funny, not me. I think MIT "engineers" disproportionately become something other than engineers, to a far larger extent than the "masses" of engineering students. That's my image. I thought they disproportionately become research scientists or professors of one sort or other. And they get offers pitched at them by extraneous people like investment banks who are looking for particularly brilliant people. The unwashed engineering proletariats never see these offers.</p>

<p>Personally I think MIT engineers are completely atypical prototypes for what engineers are. They are a paradigm of nothing. They are their own enigma. That's been my view.</p>

<p>When I worked as an engineer, I had exactly one colleague, out of a huge number of engineers there, who went to MIT. And he left after two years to get a Phd.</p>

<p>Most of the MIT engineers I know were people I met in investment banking.</p>

<p>So by my personal experience MIT grads basically do not become regular engineers.</p>

<p>By contrast, most of the people I went to school with at Cornell did become actual engineers. Though some became these other things as well.</p>

<p>"Some snooty schools, in and out of the Ivy league sports conference, look down their noses at such tradesman type endeavors."</p>

<p>-I think that maybe some schools had this view in the past, but not really anymore. Many ivy league institutions (Yale and Brown specificallly) are spending tons of money on revamping their engineering programs. They realize that they are perceived to be lacking in this field in relation to other fields and therefore are trying to make it better. Brown admitted more engineering intended majors than any other intended major and Yale is just finishing a 3-gazillion dollar BME building. Ivies don't look down on engineers, they're just a little late in jumping on the band wagon.</p>

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funny, not me. I think MIT "engineers" disproportionately become something other than engineers, to a far larger extent than the "masses" of engineering students. That's my image. I thought they disproportionately become research scientists or professors of one sort or other. And they get offers pitched at them by extraneous people like investment banks who are looking for particularly brilliant people.

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<p>I didn't mean to single out MIT. I have also seen the same thing happen with engineers coming out of places like Stanford, Berkeley, Caltech, and Princeton. I think we would all agree that these are some of the best engineering schools in the world. </p>

<p>For example, out of a class of chemical engineers coming out of Berkeley, I would say that at best half of them worked as regular engineers after graduation, and surely less than 1/4 of them still do now (about a decade later). A good fraction of them obviously jumped into PhD programs, and others went to medical school. Another good fraction jumped immediately into banking or consulting. And of those that did take regular jobs, a good fraction of those eventually went to B-school, and thereupon jumped to banking and consulting. </p>

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The unwashed engineering proletariats never see these offers.

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<p>Right there, I think you hit upon the REAL heart of the matter. I don't think that MIT, Stanford, Berkeley, Caltech, and Princeton engineers are really all that different from regular engineers in terms of what they want. The major difference is that engineers from those schools actually get the opportunities to not be engineers. In other words, the reason why many of those 'unwashed proletariat' engineers become engineers is just what you said - they never get the opportunity to do anything else. Becoming an engineer, for many of them, is the best they can do. </p>

<p>As a case in point, imagine if Goldman Sachs and McKinsey were trolling around some no-name engineering school, along with the best doctoral programs, the best med/law schools, and so forth. I strongly suspect that many of those students would choose to take those offers instead of working as engineers. </p>

<p>In other words, the only thing that is truly atypical of MIT engineers is that they get more diverse offers than the regular engineers do. I think ALL engineering students are the same in the sense that many of them don't really want to be engineers and see engineering as simply something that will get them a decent job, and they would happily take something better if it comes along. The only difference is that something better really does come along for many MIT engineers, but not so much for the no-name engineers. In other words, the MIT engineers indicate what many other engineers would want to do if given the opportunity.</p>

<p>Many engineers would not consider these other non-engineering jobs very seriously because: i) They have no interest in them; and ii) they would not be any good at them.</p>

<p>Most of these other opportunities you are referring to value verbal and interpersonal skills far more than the typical engineering employer does.</p>

<p>These other skills are not the passion of a good number of individuals who become engineers, in my experience. Or the areas in which they particularly excel, as a group. Just as many of these individuals would not see themselves as lawyers, they would not see themselves in these other occupations either; it's just not them.</p>

<p>As a group, students at at least some of the colleges you named, which are among the most selective colleges in the country generally, are different than the majority of engineering students. They have verbal SAT scores, and generally verbal capabiltites, beyond those of the average engineering student. The typical engineer ability profile is more lopsided towards math than these individuals are. Plus, these individuals are selected based on their complete package, including extracurricular involvement. They are an elite group. In order to be admitted they are likely to have excelled in areas outside the classroom as well. That makes these individuals similar to their liberal arts cousins who are competing for these jobs as well. Perhaps more similar than the bulk of engineering students who did not have to withstand this withering admissions filter, scrutinizing areas outside of academics, to the same extent.</p>

<p>So the point is, possibly a smaller percentage of grads from these other schools would take these non-engineering jobs if offered, because they wouldn't think that it played to their strengths to the same extent.</p>

<p>I don't agree that the only difference vs the MIT engineers is that the latter get more diverse offers. They also have more diverse capabilities. One is not a difference maker so much without the other. IMO.</p>

<p>As another matter, maybe Princeton is among the best engineering colleges in the world now, as you say, but I never considered it that way. Certainly not in the same sentence as Berkely or Stanford. I though it was a relatively small, boutiquey program that turned out primarly PhDs and bankers, not engineers. Excellent in a few, noncomprehensive, areas of advanced research; but practice, well not so much. But I could be wrong; haven't looked since I applied to schools myself.</p>

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As another matter, maybe Princeton is among the best engineering colleges in the world now, as you say, but I never considered it that way. Certainly not in the same sentence as Berkely or Stanford.

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<p>First off, I am not saying that Princeton is as good of an engineering school as Berkeley and Stanford is. However, see below.</p>

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Many engineers would not consider these other non-engineering jobs very seriously because: i) They have no interest in them; and ii) they would not be any good at them.</p>

<p>Most of these other opportunities you are referring to value verbal and interpersonal skills far more than the typical engineering employer does.</p>

<p>These other skills are not the passion of a good number of individuals who become engineers, in my experience. Or the areas in which they particularly excel, as a group. Just as many of these individuals would not see themselves as lawyers, they would not see themselves in these other occupations either; it's just not them.</p>

<p>As a group, students at at least some of the colleges you named, which are among the most selective colleges in the country generally, are different than the majority of engineering students. They have verbal SAT scores, and generally verbal capabiltites, beyond those of the average engineering student. The typical engineer ability profile is more lopsided towards math than these individuals are. Plus, these individuals are selected based on their complete package, including extracurricular involvement. They are an elite group. In order to be admitted they are likely to have excelled in areas outside the classroom as well. That makes these individuals similar to their liberal arts cousins who are competing for these jobs as well. Perhaps more similar than the bulk of engineering students who did not have to withstand this withering admissions filter, scrutinizing areas outside of academics, to the same extent.

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<p>I agree with you. But the way I see it is as follows.</p>

<p>Take me for an example. Do I like what I am doing. Sure. But the truth is, I'm not doing what I really want to do. Frankly, I want to be a professional baseball player. I've always wanted that, ever since I was a kid.</p>

<p>So why don't I do that? Simple. I suck at baseball. And I know that I suck. Hence, I know that I would be laughed out of any professional tryout that I might ever attend. And even if I were to magically slip through and get selected by a major league club, I would only completely humiliate and embarrass myself were I to actually try to play at a major league level. </p>

<p>But that doesn't mean that I stop wanting to be a pro baseball player. It's a simple candid assessment of what I talents I do and don't have. I know full well that I don't have the talent to play pro baseball. When I was younger, I had to make a harsh and realistic assessment of where my true talents lay. Hence, I have chosen my current path based on being realistic about what I can and cannot achieve. </p>

<p>In other words, when I say that I wish I was a professional baseball player, what I really mean to say is that I wish I had the talent of a pro baseball player. Since I don't, I have to do something with my life. </p>

<p>So when you say that a lot of engineers at the no-name schools are pursuing engineering and not consulting/banking because they don't think that the latter plays to their strengths, I agree with you. But I think a lot of them (not all, but a lot) wish that it did play to their strengths. In other words, a lot of them wish they had different strengths. Just like lots of men in America honestly wish they could be pro baseball players, but obviously most cannnot be. Hence, many of those engineers are choosing engineering not because they really want to be engineers, but because it was basically a mental compromise that they had to make in order to fit the talents they actually have (as opposed to the talents they wished they have).</p>

<p>I don't mean in an overly negative fashion. The fact is, very very few people in the world are really doing what they want to be doing. Most people would rather be professional athletes. Or movie stars. Or famous singers. Or supermodels. But the vast majority of people realize that they don't have the talent to do that, so they have to do something else. I think that for a lot (again, not all, but a lot) of the engineering students at the no-name schools, a similar parallel can be drawn.</p>

<p>I wanna be a professional lottery winner...</p>