<p>Our son is a freshman in engineering and his rationale for wanting to transfer is:</p>
<p>1) Lack of Independent Thought on Campus. We initially believed that Washington University would be similar to the University of Chicago where the diversity of ideas has made it an intellectually vibrant community. We were wrong. Washington University is more like an Ole Miss for liberals – tidy students diligently regurgitating what they’ve been taught. Diversity of thought and expression is to be shunned and eradicated. Inclusion means conformity. Smile. Don’t veer from the script. Eat the food. </p>
<p>2) Student Diversity. While Washington University touts diversity based on nationality, race, and religion as a characteristic of life, it is far from reality. The metrics of identity politics indicate some diversity though WUSTL has arguably the wealthiest, least economically diverse student body in America. The vast majority of students come from affluent, progressive, suburban enclaves and bring a similar mindset to campus. Religious tolerance is also narrow. While Christians comprise over 75% of the U.S. population (and evangelical Christians make up 1/3 of that), there is a relatively small practicing Christian population on campus who are frequently sneered at by many students (and some of the faculty). Orwell would have summarized WUSTL’s convoluted approach as “all students are equal, but some students are more equal than others.” The current admissions strategy works out well for U.S. News rankings, tuition payments and fundraising but not so well for actual diversity. </p>
<p>3) Academics. The engineering department and mechanical engineering (the second largest) are mired in mediocrity. Yes, there are nice Missouri granite buildings, and more going up, but there’s little commitment to full-time faculty. The mechanical engineering department is ranked 3rd in Missouri and 80th in the U.S. Globally, WUSTL doesn’t rank at all. We knew the reputation for engineering at WUSTL wasn’t top-notch but thought there would be more individual attention. Wrong again. The mechanical engineering student-faculty ratio is abysmal: 12 professors with 15 part-time locals teaching 363 students. That includes 95 undergraduate mechanical engineering students from the UMSL Joint Engineering Program (taught at WUSTL) and results in a student-to-full time faculty ratio of over 30 which is both stunningly deceptive and frankly inexcusable. That’s probably fine for a commuter college but not a first-rate university <a href="http://profiles.asee.org/profiles/6090/screen/15?school_name=">http://profiles.asee.org/profiles/6090/screen/15?school_name=</a> . </p>
<p>On the positive side, the athletic department is a pocket of relative normalcy on campus. The students are intelligent though the propensity for obedience and groupthink is high. And of course, the campus is beautiful and the food is good (though the points plan is a bit of a rip-off). </p>
<p>For students who fit the narrow Washington University profile, I’m sure they will have a great experience. For other bright, independent-minded students, the Orwellian campus experience and uninspired academics in multiple areas won’t be a good fit. We wanted to share our experience in the hopes that others don’t make the same mistake we did. </p>
<p>Wow. Sounds pretty horrible. Having just talked with three pretty diverse kids home for Thanksgiving from Wash U, I can say that your son’s experience is not everyone’s experience. They are thriving and love it. I hope he finds a school he likes more.</p>
<p>I dont put much stock in item 1 or 2. A freshman is essentially learning basic stuff in any college. For someone to expect to be some kind of a trailblazer is kind of silly. Most campuses are highly liberal and practicing religion on campus might get someone a second look.</p>
<p>I would not be happy about having a bunch of part time locals teaching engineering to my kid. However, I would not have let my kid attend a college or pick a major if that major has such low emphasis at that school.</p>
<p>I think the heading should be “Why we want our son to transfer from WUSTL” Regarding “your son’s” conclusions about points (1) and (2), it doesn’t seem like a busy engineering student on campus for only a few months could have had a large enough sampling of student experiences to be able to draw such conclusions about an entire student body. Your son hasn’t met “his people” yet. </p>
<p>My son is at a university that isn’t ranked in engineering either and is ranked much lower than Wash U but several of his classmates got jobs at Google and Microsoft. I agree you cannot base everything off of just one semester. </p>
<p>If you aren’t happy with the price of food, your child can move off campus. I’ve heard that is cheaper. </p>
<p>My daughter loves Wash U and cannot wait to get back however wash U definitely doesn’t fit everyone. </p>
<p>Also I just glanced at the common data set and over 40% of the students at Wash U are receiving financial aid. In addition only 52% were white. That looks like a very diverse class. </p>
<p>If your child is unhappy then he should transfer. It’s very important to be happy. They say happy students are successful and I agree. Good luck!</p>
<p>I completely agree with the first post regarding academics and independent. </p>
<p>WashU classes (engineering and non-engineering) definitely do not promote creativity or critical thinking. WashU is a premed factory. The classes aim to prepare kids for medical school where kids essentially just memorize a bunch of facts for exams and forget them right away (this is a sentiment echoed by the majority of my WashU science classmates). For example, in freshman biology class, they make you memorize lists of useless transcription factors that not even top biology PhD program make their students do. WashU does not teach logic and critical thinking, rather just facts. Perhaps there is the difference between WashU and top 5 schools. If does not want to be conformed to the premed atmosphere, I think he would better off transferring. </p>
<p>As for student population, there is definitely a few christian groups that can give your son the community feel he may want. You can PM me and i can give you a list that my friends were in and enjoyed a lot. </p>
<p>Actually, we never expected WUSTL to be conservative. We did expect the academic programs (beyond pre-med) to be well-staffed and funded. We did expect religious tolerance. WUSTL comes up short on both.</p>
<p>If you’re son or daughter is considering WUSTL, he’s is likely a very strong student and has many options available. If he’s interested in engineering or is a Christian (any background or race), I’d advise him to steer clear of WUSTL. There’s a better college fit out there for him.</p>
<p>Rayb140 – Thank you for your kind offer. I’ll reach out to my son though it’s looking like he’ll be transferring to UIUC where the engineering program is far stronger (Top 5 globally) and the campus environment is more open, diverse and tolerant.</p>
<p>So it’s not the right school for him. Happens a lot. If his grades are good, he’ll have no trouble transferring somewhere else. Hopefully he like UIUC better. Perhaps you can let us know how different that program is when he completes a year there.</p>
<p>Not sure why you would think WUSTL would be like U of Chicago, which is somewhat unique in intensity and “life of the mind” focus. Did someone at WUSTL tell you it was similar? To me it is obvious they aren’t going to be similar in that respect.</p>
<p>You or your son must be delusional if you think Christians are not accepted at Wash U. It’s a very tolerant campus and the vast majority of students are Christian. I knew plenty of people who were observant Christians and I never experienced any sense of religious intolerance.</p>
<p>And I’ve got news for you: Your son hasn’t even finished one semester yet. The only mechanical engineering core class your son may have taken so far is CAD, and it’s entirely possible he didn’t even get into CAD this semester. He hasn’t given the school a chance. The extent of your son’s experience with the mechanical engineering department is barely more than he could have learned by doing some basic research before matriculating.</p>
<p>Graduate from Wash U. Roomed with two active methodists (one a Fox News-watching conservative), and knew devout Catholics on campus. And I remember intense intellectual discussions on topics that didn’t fit the progressive zeitgeist.</p>
<p>Like anything else, it’s largely what you make of it and what communities you seek out. I was feeling unfulfilled with the friends I made the first two years at Wash U, and in junior year lived with a completely different set of people. It was one of the best decisions I could have made.</p>
<p>As someone who went to Wash U on financial need/merit scholarship, I agree with #2. </p>
<p>There are several reason why I advise avoiding WUSTL engineering (excepting Biomed). WUSTL’s engineering problems are first and foremost an administration issue. The engineering students are a sharp group of kids and they’re getting a raw deal based on the following:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Student-to-full time faculty ratio. I mentioned this earlier and WUSTL is one of the worst. Mechanical engineering is 30:1 (including UMSL) and even Biomedical is 20:1. At MIT, the mechanical engineering student-to-faculty ratio in ME is 3.8. Most schools fall between these extremes. Check it out at ASEE.</p></li>
<li><p>Research dollars. WUSTL is a major research university but virtually none of it is spent in the traditional engineering fields. Research money is at the heart of the virtuous circle and of WUSTL’s $700M, only $12M goes to all engineering and computer science combined (excluding Biomed which gets $13M on its own). Here’s how that $12M compares to Engineering/CS elsewhere:
a. Case Western: $31M
b. University of South Florida: $37M
c. Duke: $45M
d. Northwestern: $69M
e. UC-Berkeley: $172M
f. UIUC: $237M
g. MIT: $383M</p></li>
<li><p>ABET accreditation. Multiple majors such as Materials Science, Computer Science and Computer Engineering are not accredited. They should get it done. They’ve also created other faux-engineering majors that will never be accredited such as: “Applied Science” engineering, “Individually designed” engineering and Information Management.
Students should be upset at the administration for their utter disregard of engineering. It’s 20% of the undergraduate population and less than 2% of the research budget. They’re drawing in students and tuition dollars and not investing in the programs. It’s hard to be great at that rate.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>On the completely separate topic of religious tolerance, based on my son’s experience and other input I received, I believe it’s a problem. It’s even bizarrely institutionalized through Res Life with structured dorm floor “discussions” on topics like gay marriage with the Christian being singled out and shouted down. How Chancellor Wrighton could think this is a good way to integrate students into college life is beyond me but I guess it does help build camaraderie among the mob.</p>
<p>That doesn’t mean there aren’t Christian students having a good campus experience but they’re still likely to fare better elsewhere. I’m sure some Copts are quite happy too, but if a Christian asked me for a good place to live I wouldn’t suggest Egypt. There are lots of options and prospective Christian students should be aware that they’re likely to face a higher level of verbal harassment on the WUSTL campus. </p>
<p>It sounds like your child ought to make new friends. My D attends a Catholic church with her friends and she has several friends that are of dramatically different religions and there have been no issues. Remember there are over 10k students at Wash U. You cannot brand everyone as having the same experience as your child. </p>
<p>By the way 30:1 and 20:1 student ratios are great! In fact that is awesome! What is wrong with that? If you are in a class of 3 students, I would think that would hurt vs. help. I would think students would prefer 20-30 over a tiny class so there is more interaction and you can learn from others. I’ve heard several professors say that you need to study with your friends so you can succeed. A Rice professor once told his class that you will not succeed if you study on your own and you need to study with others so you won’t fail. That would be hard to do if the class size is small (especially if there are only 3 in the class). I agree with this because my son actually lived in an engineering dorm and he had friends where they studied together. His class size was around 20-30 and that was perfect. These class sizes are a huge plus compared to the state universities which I’ve heard are around 500:1. </p>
<p>I’m sorry you are upset but it isn’t Wash U’s fault. It just sounds like Wash U just doesn’t fit your child or your child is having a difficult time acclimating (possibly hanging around the wrong people, etc.). Either way, the good news is it sounds fixable. </p>
<p>I forgot to mention that many of the top schools don’t have Computer Science accredited (Rice, Wash U, Carnegie Mellon, Stanford, University of Washington, etc.). That’s normal.</p>
<p>Potawatomi: Assuming everything you write is factual (I did not check), didn’t you know all this when you accepted your place at Wash U 7 months ago?</p>
<p>Thanks to everyone for their thoughts and encouragement. My son has made a few friends and we realize that one person’s experience is just that. I’m glad to hear that the WUSTL experience is working for other students. At the same time, he figures he’s more likely to have an expanded circle of friends in a more open-minded environment. We hope he’s right. And we figured why pay $65,000/year to be in an average, underfunded mechanical engineering program that runs the risk of being shut down (like aerospace and civil were just a few years back) while enduring university-sanctioned harassment. It’s like paying top dollar to be abused by the waitress at an Applebee’s.</p>
<p>A few comments on earlier posts:</p>
<ol>
<li> We didn’t know all this about the engineering program but wish we did. Caveat emptor. As you can imagine, this isn’t part of the promotional material or highlighted on campus tours.</li>
<li> Student-to-faculty ratio is not the same as class size. Class size is simply how many seats are in a section (or an average across sections). </li>
<li> My son realized that WUSTL and University of Chicago weren’t alike at his very first mandatory dorm floor “discussion” on gay sex. He knew then he had entered the “Life of the Mindless”. So many interesting and inspiring ideas out there and this is what WUSTL considers great scholarship. I feel like one of Bernie Madoff’s clients right about now.</li>
</ol>
<p>I want to apologize to members for the flippant tone and remarks in my last post. While we made a mistake, I certainly don’t want to be rude to the many students or parents who are happy with their WUSTL experience.</p>
<p>I hope we will like it better when we transfer.</p>
<p>Coming here to bash a college with no posting history lacks credibility. As does a brand new freshman having a lot of knowledge what the student body is like, esp compared to other schools. Hope we are happier soon and grow up a bit so our mom doesn’t decide how we feel about everything.</p>
<p>I don’t mean this to sound rude, but others really should not take this complaint seriously. That you think the AS degrees should be accredited shows that you don’t actually know what you’re complaining about about. The CS degrees have never been accredited, and there’s very little (no?) need for them to be so. As far as I’m aware it hasn’t impacted any of my peers. Also, the entire purpose of the Applied Science degrees is for students who have no need or want of an accredited degree. I have one myself (my EE is accredited, my Systems is an AS degree). It was perfect for me, considering it would be pointless to do two senior designs when my EE makes me eligible for PE licensure as it is.</p>
<p>
Quoting to emphasize.</p>
<p>Look, I’m sorry that your son didn’t find what he was looking for. But if you think you can judge a school like you have without actually taking any engineering classes (which he has not, as a first semester MechE)… it’s just quite silly. Similarly, you cannot include the UMSL students in the faculty:student ratio - that’s entirely unfair.</p>
<p>There are a lot of things you can criticize wustl engineering for (and I’ll be the first to do so), but I really don’t think anything you’ve raised is valid for a first semester student.</p>
<p>I hope he’ll be happier at UIUC. Wustl isn’t for everyone. But the school has a remarkably low transfer rate because the VAST majority of students are freakishly happy with the school.</p>