Why Science Majors Change Their Minds (It’s Just So Darn Hard)

Parents Forum
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<p>Sounds like your school district has a problem common in most US school districts…low expectations and the emphasis on lowest common denominator teaching…a.k.a. teaching to the slowest students. </p>

<p>This is also a problem in most NYC high schools. In contrast, the culture at some rigorous magnet high schools like my NYC Specialized high school was high expectations…including the expectation that teachers in almost every class taught to the top 1/3 to top 10% and the rest were expected to keep up or sink. </p>

<p>If some kids/parents felt that was too harsh, the common refrain from teachers, admins, and fellow classmates/parents was…“You can always transfer back to your zoned high school”.</p>

<p>Around 28% of my entering freshman HS class exercised that transfer option within the first two years or had well-off parents who sent them off to a more nurturing private/boarding school.</p>

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<p>exactly, it is a COMMON problem in US school districts. AP classes are the “equalizer” for some of these students, although not always well executed in the schools themselves. The option of nothing is a much worse scenerio.</p>

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<p>I am hoping that my son having to start with the basics in college will be at least SOME kind of advantage. He was not a fast track high schoolers, and took precalc as a senior, and I think got an A. But he tested back into pre calc in college. He is doing better than most in the class, albeit without other engineering students, and I am hoping the teaching is " good". If all goes as planned, he will be taking calc 2 in summer school. I hope we can find a good option locally.</p>

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<p>our local hs is woefully deficient in stem classes, and offers no ap classes. Instead S2 went to a math/science school and for that i am even more thankful after reading that article. local school offered one semester of chemistry, vs the 14 classes he took at his hs. (through inorganic chem).<br>
the other issues raised in the article i think are also important re the opportunity for research… a great school S2 was accepted to stated they would not encourage a student to do research until the end of junior year, At his current school he has been doing research since the first semester of freshman year…that has been not only exciting and fulfilling but has helped him with course selection etc</p>

<p>not quite sure i understand the elite school aspect though… (i cant find the threads i have read recently about grade inflation) but if some of these elites are known for that (ie 85% of the students in a class will get A’s) then how are so many flunking out…is the grade inflation issue there or not at elites?
as a side issue i have always wondered when people say that an elite helps you with med school acceptance as an A from HYPS is looked at better than an A from state U…if grade inflation truly exists, how could this continue?</p>

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<p>I think that sometimes the kids who were good at math and science in high school chose to go into STEM for college which then means that the classes will be filled with similiar students making the competition that much harder. PLus, if they are in a very selective college, the competition will be that much more than they had in high school. Older son, physics major, is a tutor for math and science at his college and he was so excited this week that he was able to “save” a physics student from dropping Physics. The classes in college move faster than the high school classes and if the student misses or doesn’t understand a concept they can become hopelessly lost. So it is very important that they reach out and get help as early in the semester as possible. Older son was confused with a calc 2 concept received help from a friend and ending up sailing through the course and the next one but if he hadn’t asked for help, he too might have dropped.</p>

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<p>I think it has to do with a lack of focus on teaching math. Most 3rd and 4th grade teachers hate math and love poetry. Most college calculus teachers have never taken a psychology class in their lives. Both of those are problems! Just because you know something doesn’t mean you know how to teach it to someone else. And just because you have taken all those classes to learn how to run a classroom doesn’t mean that you have a love of math. If you love math chances are you are teaching 7-12 grade math. And if you really love math chances are you went into a STEM major and are not teaching at all. So what are the chances that the person teaching our kids fractions loves math? That right there is the first half of the problem. The second half of the problem is that the person teaching college calculus is more worried about his or her own research project than if the students “get it.” Although by that point the kids who are going to succeed have already figured out how to teach themselves and find a study partner. So I’m back to blaming that 3rd, 4th and 5th grade teacher who never enjoyed math in the first place, and try as they might they passed along their disdain for math to her little charges. And if that isn’t enough the student gets to go home to a mother who is not the slightest bit embarassed to say, “I never liked math. Ask your dad to explain it when he gets home.” I can’t imagine an Asian mother saying such a thing to her 4th grader. She would die of shame first.</p>

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<p>It’s not clear that this is what the Notre Dame guy in the OP’s article is trying to say. There is a lot of memorization of equations in engineering, moreso than in pure physics. That’s how I took that comment, not that the guy couldn’t handle theory and/or math.</p>

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<p>What does “what an Asian mother would say” have to do with the topic? Did we morph to a Tigermom discussion all of a sudden?</p>

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<p>My kid dropped out of math almost immediately. There were lots of reasons for this. One was that the prof was a poor teacher. He was a non-native speaker and was difficult to understand. The TA was abysmal and was even more difficult to understand. </p>

<p>My kid made a decision. Kid could continue as a math major, in a department with weak teaching, and earn a respectable, but not stellar GPA. (STEM courses tend to give out lower grades than humanities and social sciences.) Kid could also switch into a different major, be taught by outstanding faculty, have fewer TAs, almost all of whom were native English speakers, and earn a higher GPA. </p>

<p>Kid had no interest in getting a Ph.D. in math and was thinking about law school. GPA (and LSAT) matters a lot. Chose option #2. I think most people would. </p>

<p>I have a neighbor whose son got a Ph.D. in engineering. He was the only native English speaker TA. Kids invented all sorts of reasons they HAD to be in one of the sections he taught. Saying “we can’t understand the others” was politically incorrect. The department gave some easy test of English speaking skills and that was that. </p>

<p>If you want kids to major in STEM, you’ve got to provide good profs and TAs. There’s a lot more options out there for people with STEM degrees than people who want to be English or philosophy faculty. The result is that, in general, STEM faculty aren’t as good as humanities faculty. </p>

<p>The problem of foreign TAs is spreading into subjects like economics, so fewer American kids will end up in that field in the future.</p>

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<p>I’ll bite. Are non Asian moms all alike? What DOES “the Asian mother” say?</p>

<p>I helped my d as long as I could. One day she said " I used to understand it until you helped me!". She still comes to me for most things, though.</p>

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<p>That and US K-12 education on average provides poor preparation for college STEM majors.</p>

<p>Very, very true. Many kids do not have very good science and math teachers during the K-12 years. Too many people who are strong in those areas find teaching to be too low paid. They can make so much more elsewhere.</p>

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<p>Speaking from my personal experience as a Mechanical Engineering student at CMU, I think K-12 education, especially high school education, plays a huge role in how well students do once they get here (or other similarly rigorous programs). </p>

<p>I am employed as a peer tutor by CMU, so I tutor a number of the intro courses that so often cause students to switch majors (e.g. math through Diff Eq, the physics courses for engineers, etc.), and there is no doubt in my mind that these classes, among others, are often incredibly hard no matter how well prepared one is. </p>

<p>Nonetheless, when I look at which students do well here and which students are struggling, more often than not, the most obvious differentiating factor is high school preparation. I believe nearly everyone here is very intelligent, but those who came from rigorous high schools do better simply because they are so much better prepared.</p>

<p>In particular, students who came from magnets like Stuyvesant High School, TJHSST, and so on do very well because these schools ofter an extraordinary number of advanced math, science, computer science, and even engineering courses. I came from a very challenging private high school, and while I did not have access to the technical courses some students at specialized high schools have, I did have very strong academic preparation. </p>

<p>Though I certainly work extremely hard here at CMU, I really credit my high school preparation more than anything else. Students here come from a wide variety of high schools, and it can be very hard to “catch up” if one was always a top math/science student at a school that was not particularly rigorous. Several of my friends have experienced this issue, noting that they were always top math/science students in high school, but here they feel as though they are barely going to pass their classes. These are people who genuinely are very smart, and have true natural talent for engineering. Unfortunately, no matter how smart one is, it’s really hard to be thrown into a typical year of freshman engineering courses without truly adequate preparation, which is sadly just not found in many schools these days.</p>

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<p>Umm, many TAs leading the discussion sections in freshman calculus are just starting PhD programs having recently just completed their bachelor’s degrees in math. However, the primary class is led by a faculty member with a PhD.</p>

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<p>I want in on this thread but I thought I would post a comment someone else said here on cc.</p>

<p>“It isn’t that engineering is so hard, it is that all those other majors are just so easy”. </p>

<p>My son is applying for Mech engineering for next year. I’ll let you know.</p>

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<p>My D is a freshman at WPI, which is mentioned in the article as having a high retention rate. She loves everything about the school. There is an amazing amount of faculty support, and the other students all work together to help each other.</p>

<p>During the President’s Freshman Orientation Day speech, he said that there are 9 words to help you get through WPI. “Go to class, do the work, and ask for help.” My D has seen that the students who don’t go to class or ask for help are the ones who struggle the most.</p>

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<p>I think that true aptitude is required for STEM majors, especially the more theoretical fields of math/physics. Brightness just doesn’t cut it once you get past first year college level in those fields (at least in the top tier colleges that I’m familiar with). If your brain isn’t wired in certain way, the stuff just doesn’t make sense and all the memorization in the world won’t get you through. Kids will hit that wall and realize they’re not cut out for it.</p>

<p>As far as pre college education, I think it’s most important for those who are OK but not great in the areas. The ones who are gifted in STEM will overcome poor education, but the marginal ones will not.</p>

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<p>"What does “what an Asian mother would say” have to do with the topic? Did we morph to a Tigermom discussion all of a sudden? "</p>

<p>As long as it is acceptable in our culture for women to think math is too hard, and “the train problem” to be a joke then only the most talented geeky math techno nerds will put out the effort to do well in math. When being stupid in math becomes as big an embarrassment at being illiterate then things will change. Until then you can forget about it! You don’t even want to know the conversations I’ve had with professional educators on this very subject. The fact that they defend math phobic behavior in adults is disgusting. I sat through the most awful 6th grade orientation and then when I complained to the GC about the math teacher’s poor attitude I got told she was right - Moms can’t do math. Maybe it is just my little town, but I dont think so!</p>

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<p>I can’t believe I am telling you people exactly what the problem is and I am getting feedback on Tiger mom. Elemetary school teachers aren’t required to take enough math in college. Many of them hate math and barely got through college algebra and these are the people teaching your kids fractions! That right there is THE problem. They wouldn’t and don’t tolerate that in Asia. Being stupid isn’t funny over there. If mom can’t help with the math a tutor will be hired immediately. It is not a joke people. If you allow the hippie poetry let’s talk about our feelings idiots to run the schools, don’t be shocked when only your top 10% can to the math required to get an engineering degree.</p>

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<p>Depends on the school. D2 has been a TA in Linear Analysis since her freshman year. (She took Linear Analysis in high school.) As a senior, she’ll be TAing biochem. (She got ‘bored’ teaching linear analysis after 3 years.) D1 was TAed PChem as a supersenior (5th year) and taught Acoustics for non-physics majors–lecture, lab & recitation, the whole enchilada without a prof supervising her-- as a college senior.</p>

<p>Both girls have called many of their peers “remarkably lazy” with often kids turning in homework answers straight out of the solutions manual. (Even when the answers are obviously wrong. D1 said they even copied stuff that was full of typos without bothering to fix the typos. She finally got so fed up she took it the class prof who brought up 5 students on Honors charge for plagarizing homework solutions.)</p>

<p>DH had a prof in grad school (Top 5 physics program) who used to say: knowledge comes from pain.</p>

<p>I think there’s a certain amount of truth to that. You have to be willing to grind out the hours of homework to get the skills needed for STEM majors.</p>

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<p>It isn’t only the fact there’s a shortage of strong math and science teachers in K-12. There’s also IMHO a more disturbing fact that becoming a K-12 teacher has become such an undesirable job in the US due to mediocre pay, widespread social disdain, better opportunities for elite college grads…including STEM majors, crappy working conditions(i.e. Unruly students/parents), and more. </p>

<p>Widespread perceptions among most top elite college students and many parents that education is mostly a haven for academic mediocrities who graduated in the bottom half of their college class does not help matters…especially when there’s some truth to it. </p>

<p>Knew several M.Ed grads at Top-3 programs…including Ivies who were admitted with sub-3.0 GPAs and mediocre GREs…and some were given scholarships. One of them was a former roommate who admitted his stats would not have been competitive if he applied to his Ivy campus’ GSAS Masters programs.</p>