Why Science Majors Change Their Minds (It’s Just So Darn Hard)

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<p>For the record, I have a Masters degree in Art History from one of the top programs in the country, so yes, I do know of what I speak.</p>

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<p>Upper division Art H courses do build on Art H 101 where one ideally learns basic outline of the discipline, basic techniques of how to approach a piece of work from various historical perspectives, the vocabulary etc. One then applies this knowledge, which is qualitative not quantitative, to various periods of art, artists, pieces etc. As one learns more, the complexity and the quality of one’s analysis increases. A senior student should write a more thoughtful and nuanced paper than a sophomore, so it is vertical in that sense. However, a sophomore and a senior can both take the same course. </p>

<p>Thinking through Biology though, it’s really not all that vertical either. Other than the chem/orgo/biochem (biochem in my college was a grad course and UG were not required to take although I did as a Jr) and the calculus before physics route, it really was/is not a vertical major. I think the physical sciences/math/engineering is where the ladder is steep, so to speak. And that, I think, is just the nature of those disciplines. I can probably walk any educated person through an art history argument, biological phenomena, or a medical condition, but there is no way anyone is going to walk me through a complex theoretical mathematical problem (such as the ones my soph DS is doing in Real Analysis) with an iota of understanding on my part. </p>

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<p>Heck, I got way more B’s in my Hum/Soc Sci courses than I did in my STEM classes. I just figured it was because I was better at STEM than I was at writing papers. BTW, I think DS’s freshman physics (for majors) prof basically gave out mostly A’s. So each decide how to ‘curve.’</p>

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<p>Without meaning to sound obnoxious, truthfully I am not sure why people find Gen Bio so difficult. There are no complex theories for people to understand, no nuanced analysis that a student has to perform. It’s read the book, learn the material. Yes, lots of information, but actually lot less than you will learn in a first year med school anatomy class. And if you want to ‘just’ major in Biology, it’s stuff you should find interesting and want to learn.</p>

<p>And no, med schools cannot do the weeding. My med school class was capped at 104 students as that was the number of pathology slide sets the school possessed. You were assigned a set, expected to guard it with your life, and there were no extras.</p>

<p>I don’t think anyone would want to go through the med school app process, pay a years tuition and then find out that you really are not fit for the field :D</p>

<p>There was an interesting article in my local paper about the dearth of time allocated to teaching science in our elementary schools:<br>
[Science</a> gets short shrift in California elementary schools, study finds - Sacramento News - Local and Breaking Sacramento News | Sacramento Bee](<a href=“http://www.sacbee.com/2011/11/05/4033373/science-gets-short-shrift-in-california.html#storylink=scinlineshare]Science”>http://www.sacbee.com/2011/11/05/4033373/science-gets-short-shrift-in-california.html#storylink=scinlineshare)</p>

<p>Thought it was interesting in light of this thread.</p>

<p>Perhaps, but is it really the function of undergrad bio departments to weed out 18-year-old premeds in Gen Bio? Shouldn’t that be the grad/professional school’s responsibility?</p>

<p>Good heavens, no! Med school acceptances and STEM grad schools acceptances tend to be very low, so grad school or med school is NOT the time to do the weeding. </p>

<p>*Some of it being described here sounds like hazing to me – make it tough to prove how studly we all are. *</p>

<p>lol…no, it’s not like some kind of sick power trip or bullying. Weeding is done to “separate the men from the boys” (not to be sexist, so also to separate the women from the girls :wink: )</p>

<p>I think weeding does people a huge favor. Why provide false encouragement (grade inflation) to those in STEM/Pre-med? It’s “tough love” so to speak to let these kids know early on that they don’t have what it takes to continue so that they can transition to a major that is a better fit for their talents.</p>

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<p>Is this really a smart thing for STEM profs to participate in? The country has an woefully inadequate knowledge of science, so the first thing we do to 18-year-olds is ensure that they drop science? Huh? The more students in their classes, the more money they will receive from the college. By weeding students out, they have less students and less money? Is that logical?</p>

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<p>Any major could easily require a mastery of a certain core set of knowledge to move into upper division classes. But faculty in those departments choose not to require same. Hence, the horizontal vs. vertical education. Why is that?</p>

<p>Someone posted languages as a subject that requires a core knowledge which is true to move into Intermediate and Advanced language courses. But note, a language major will be required to take ‘lit’ courses in that subject, but such courses are frequently taught in English. Thus, upper Russian Lit courses also contain students majoring in English majors or Poli Sci or even STEM fields. No upper division language knowledge required to take such upper division ‘Lit’ classes. Why not?</p>

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<p>The roots of this problem lay at the poor STEM/general academic skills preparation provided by most K-12 schools in the US. If you want to address the problems of “woeful inadequate knowledge of science”…this needs to be addressed at the junior high and high school levels at the absolute latest. Trying to fix this problem in college is the equivalent of trying to close the barn doors when the horses have long since bolted from the farm.</p>

<p>It would be interesting to know, of those students who start as STEM majors and switch to non-STEM, the percentages that (a) drop or get kicked out because they’re not smart enough to hack it, (b) drop or get kicked out because they’re not willing to work hard enough to hack it, or (c) drop because although neither (a) or (b) obtain, they decide that a STEM career is not what they want to do with their lives.</p>

<p>It is not simply high school prep and certainly not elementary teachers that create this issue. These courses are hard and require a lot of work. I still remember feeling somewhat frustrated that my friends in other majors had a much easier time with grades, while one professor refused an A- to an average of 89.5. I also recall the high level of competition from the pre-med students in classes like orgo which was required, but not as essential, for other science majors</p>

<p>The quality of professors and the size of lecture classes are also an issue. For whatever reason, even in high level classes, there is a lot of top-down teaching and less discussion in science and math classes. </p>

<p>For kids that are not natually talented or excited by technical fields, it takes a lot of maturity to study and focus while the social science majors are able to crank out a paper in a few hours. </p>

<p>It would certainly be interesting to find out if the courses are more difficult than they need to be. Once one gets to a job it is the specifics of that job that you have to understand. A chemical engineer at a oil refinery does not really use the physics or structural enginnering he or she struggled with in college. I may use differential equations in the modeling work I do, but I don’t generally have to remember how to differeniate a complex trig function. I even need some organic chem in understanding the environmental fate of compounds, but the details of 100s of reactions faded from my memory by the end of college, never to be needed again. I am just not sure STEM curricula really focuses on what is critical to create an excellent engineer or scientist.</p>

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<p>That’s not what my high school classmates and I saw in our intro STEM weeder courses…including the two intro CS major courses I took. </p>

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<p>This frustration is not justified IME. In most educational environments I’ve experienced, an 89.5 is well within the B+ range as one needed a minimum of an 88 to claim it assuming no curving. An -A required a minimum of a 91 and sometimes higher.</p>

<p>*Quote:
Therefore the STEM profs pretty much know that essentially everyone in those harder science courses are in STEM majors (or pre-med)…and some students really don’t have what it takes to continue, hence the need to weed. </p>

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<p>Is this really a smart thing for STEM profs to participate in? The country has an woefully inadequate knowledge of science, so the first thing we do to 18-year-olds is ensure that they drop science? Huh? The more students in their classes, the more money they will receive from the college. By weeding students out, they have less students and less money? Is that logical?*</p>

<p>??? Are you suggesting that profs just hand out undeserved passing grades in the hard sciences? What does having larger numbers of kids (undeservedly) passing hard sciences do for anyone other than colleges receiving more money??? Do we really want to flood the country with STEM degrees that are worthless.</p>

<p>Seriously, when a college has a rep that it’s grades in math and the hard sciences are worthless, then no one wants to hire students from that school. My H’s company will not hire engineers from a certain university because it’s found that the grads are not adequately prepared. The school has been given passing grades for what??? Showing up? Paying tuition??? Is that what you want? </p>

<p>If someone had an inadequate K-12 science/math education and wants to do STEM/pre-med, then they need to do the baby-steps first, get their science/match foundation squared, AND THEN take harder sciences. It would be GPA-suicide to just jump from a poor foundation into those weeder classes. Such a person could start at a CC and get the basics with sub100 courses, etc…and then move onto Calculus and the hard sciences. In the end, it may take 5-6 years to graduate, but at least the degree will mean something. </p>

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As for the “pre-law” types: Rarely would a prof know that he has pre-law students in his class. Pre-law students don’t have “pre-reqs” like the pre-med students do. Which courses could have a weeding element??? </p>

<p>Any major could easily require a mastery of a certain core set of knowledge to move into upper division classes. But faculty in those departments choose not to require same. Hence, the horizontal vs. vertical education. Why is that?</p>

<p>Someone posted languages as a subject that requires a core knowledge which is true to move into Intermediate and Advanced language courses. But note, a language major will be required to take ‘lit’ courses in that subject, but such courses are frequently taught in English. Thus, upper Russian Lit courses also contain students majoring in English majors or Poli Sci or even STEM fields. No upper division language knowledge required to take such upper division ‘Lit’ classes. Why not?</p>

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<p>I’ve seen in some course descriptions that majors in the language are expected to read the works in the original.</p>

<p>I teach one of these “weed-out” CS courses at a directional U.</p>

<p>Really, the weeding out is completely natural. The students who are weeded out are those who can’t write a while loop or an if statement to save their lives, and this is on tests where there are examples of while loops and if statements that they can start from.</p>

<p>Many students that get to our college have these issues.</p>

<p>1) Their preparation is bad. Besides bad math, their upbringing does not include much “real-world problem solving”. In my generation, we took things apart and sometimes fixed them. We sewed, we cooked, we gardened, we made up games and rules, we wandered around by ourselves. Much of CS is planning in advance and many of today’s students have no clue.</p>

<p>2) Their discipline is bad. It really doesn’t matter when a program is due. They’ll start working on it the day it is due. This is not a good way to succeed in CS. In addition, using the textbook as a resource in any context seems to be beyond them.</p>

<p>3) Their motivation is bad. Many politicians are openly anti-science. Businesses are anti-US-science by their offshoring and their importing of foreign labor. Our media is dominated by stories about stupid entertainers.</p>

<p>We have tutors, recitations, facilities that are well beyond anything I ever saw as an undergrad or graduate student.</p>

<p>Now the above does not apply to all students, but to most of the students who are “weeded out”. It is just as well that these students are weeded out of CS as early as possible, so they can move on to other majors.</p>

<p>Seems like there is some room for fixing “their prep is bad”. It is not the fault of the student if they took the highest level classes offered in their high school, but the rigor was not sufficient. It seem short sighted to “weed them out” the first or second semester of college when some remedial work could bring them up to speed.</p>

<p>Also… it seems like smaller class sizes and TAs who are proficient in English could make a big difference. My kid will likely attend an LAC to study science for these very reasons. Obviously she will end up at a research university in grad school (and maybe for REUs in the summer). But more supportive teaching is important to us in selecting a college.</p>

<p>I heard a podcast a while ago (just hunted for it, but can’t find it :frowning: ) about a professor who has found that teaching hard sciences through a collaborative method works really well. I think it was on Science Friday… His method was that once some of the students have grasped a concept, he has them work with those who don’t get it yet to explain it. I don’t remember for sure, but I think he alternated his classes between some lecture, and some of these explaining sessions (in the same hour). He has done formal studies of both methods, and found that this method produces a much higher rate of understanding across the class. He says that it is easier for someone who just learned a concept to explain it because they are more likely to realize what is confusing or difficult for someone trying to figure it out (because the student explaining just went through that). Wish I could find the link. But what it made me realize is that just because we have always taught science this way (big lecture format and independent reading) does NOT mean it is the best way to do it.</p>

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<p>We do it with other liberal arts degrees… :D</p>

<p>so why is STEM different?</p>

<p>Step back for a minute and pretend that you are a college chancellor responsible for the education of thousands of young adults. Why would you allow different major to have radically different pass rates? What is the academic rationale? Why are 50+% As ok in many majors but not in Frosh Chem and Frosh Bio. Why are C’s extremely rare in many majors, but not Frosh Chem and Frosh Bio? Why do some/many non-science majors have an A- average? Why aren’t non-STEM majors graded as harshly as STEM majors? (Are our high school graduates really that good at writing?) </p>

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<p>Thank you for supporting my point.</p>

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<p>Of course, grade inflation has already made it so that successful applicants to US medical schools have GPAs all compressed at the top of the grading scale, so that pre-meds fret at the possibility of receiving a single grade lower than an A-.</p>

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<p>Apparently, a lot of people in the US who drive cars would not be able or willing to install the spare tire if they got flat tires. So car companies these days are no longer including spare tires in some cars (less cost, less weight, and people will call the tow truck anyway if the can of fix-flat stuff does not work).</p>

<p>*Seems like there is some room for fixing “their prep is bad”. It is not the fault of the student if they took the highest level classes offered in their high school, but the rigor was not sufficient. It seem short sighted to “weed them out” the first or second semester of college when some remedial work could bring them up to speed.</p>

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<p>It’s not practical for remedial work to go on during the semesters that these courses are being taken. The remedial work needs to occur FIRST. </p>

<p>Many schools weed before school even commences. That’s what goes on at schools where you have to apply specifically to the College of Engineering or other depts. Try to get accepted to UCLA’s COE with an ACT that is deemed ok for other majors, but not for its COE.</p>

<p>Sure… but if you are like I was in college chem, I didn’t even know my prep was bad until it was too late. I got good grades in HS sciences and math, and had a decent math SAT (720 on the old scale, with no prep and only one sitting). In retrospect, I would rather have given up some of my elective classes to do some remedial work to get up to snuff to pass the science courses than move to another major. But no one even brings that up as an option to these kids, I suspect. So we lose a lot of kids out of those majors who probably have the innate talent, but don’t start at the same point as some of the students with better prep.</p>

<p>In fact, I know there are weaknesses in my D2’s prep for a science major. But the only reason I know is because she decided to self study for one of the science olympiads, and realized that the book used for prep is the AP text for schools that offer AP in that science. Clearly if she had not self studied with that text, she would have started well behind a lot of other kids who had the AP opportunity, as her “honors” textbook was much simpler. She is thinking about getting the AP textbooks for the other 2 “hard” sciences to review those the summer before she starts college.</p>

<p>*nd realized that the book used for prep is the AP text for schools that offer AP in that science. Clearly if she had not self studied with that text, she would have started well behind a lot of other kids who had the AP opportunity, as her “honors” textbook was much simpler. She is thinking about getting the AP textbooks for the other 2 “hard” sciences to review those the summer before she starts college. *</p>

<p>I think that AP math and science classes and the resulting class-wide scores are good indicators for how well those classes are being taught. (I’m not saying that AP exams are a perfect measure.)</p>

<p>A short time ago a mom asked if all AP Physics classes were like her son’s (no one ever passes the AP exam). Clearly, if that were a trend across the nation, that would be a problem. The fact that most students the pass AP Physics exam was more on an indictment that her child’s school has a rotten teacher/program. </p>

<p>At my kids’ high school (not a public), if most kids don’t get 4s and 5s, the teacher is changed. </p>

<p>I love AP classes.</p>

<p>bluebayou, so far as I know, it’s always – not just sometimes – the case that majors in a particular language who take a course given in English on literature in that language are expected to read the works in the original. Otherwise, I doubt they’d get credit towards their major. Obviously, when such courses are given in English it’s so that non-speakers of the language can study literature in translation. After all, there is (or at least was, when I was in college) a comparative literature major.</p>

<p>^The Comp Lit major at my college expected you to read those books in the original language. I took an advanced French Lit course, I remember we were expected to read the books in French, but we weren’t required to write papers in French, but could if we wanted to. (I did.) I can’t remember what language the lectures were in, but I think they were in French.</p>