<p>MiamiDap: I don’t know why you’re talking about math in Biology; my point was that, in concentrating only on memorization and covering as much of the subject as quickly as possible, there was no room for discussion, for thinking about the subject, for the kind of hands-on learning that engages students, in high school as in college. AP courses dictate subject matter and coverage, to the extent that the student and teacher must cover just as much as they possibly can, without regard to appreciation of the subject. I think (and the article seems to bear me out) that approach promotes burnout rather than mastery.</p>
<p>This is straying off-topic, but I heartily agree with marysidney that the shear breadth of the AP curricula in subjects that are memorization intensive can be a soul-sucking experiencing. My daughter managed to blaze through the entire AP American History curriculum last year and get a 5 on the test, but abhorred the class, remembers nothing and is now thoroughly turned off the entire discipline. It will honestly surprise me if she ever takes a history class again (unless she ends up some place where one is required). Sad.</p>
<p>marysidney,
My point was that is how Bio is taught everywhere. Just too much material, there is no reason for discussion, there is no concepts (like in chem or physics), it is memorization at all levels. There is a hands on learning in Anatomy classes, but it is a bit deeper than HS Bio, although there is some dissections going on in middle school and HS, but it is really very little to consider seriously. In Bio they have to cover as much as they can. Otherwise they will be in trouble at college. AP Bio material was covered in 2 weeks in D’s first college Bio class (she did not skip it despite of “5”, was not recommended at her UG), then they move on to new material. Yes, you are correct, many honors college freshman pre-meds were burned out. But that was the purpose, they simply cannot allow more applicants to Med. School, they already accept only about 43%. Out of those who survived weed out Bio, some fall out in Organic Chemistry, very well known weed out for pre-meds. At least Bio is really needed, there is no use for Orgo in medicine, it seems to be used strictly to eliminate the weaker ones. If this process is not used, then Med. Schools’ Adcoms will be completely buried under application avalanche. Most of them already receive about 5000 for average of 170 spots at each Med. School.</p>
<p>Doctors have done a great job at limiting the number of new entrants into their field by making it SOOO difficult to get into medicine. That’s what keeps the salaries so high.</p>
<p>^Amount of debt and malpractice insurance are keeling salaries high. The other factors are secondary.</p>
<p>I guess I didn’t know that the only reason to take Biology was to go to med school. Taking it because you want a liberal arts education, or a broad background in science, is right out, then?</p>
<p>When I took intro in college, I thought it was an interesting and thought-provoking course, although certainly there was a lot of memorization.</p>
<p>then she should take ‘evolutionary biology’ probably, which is more or less class that one can learn on her own without taking time at college. there are many classes like that. you can find text that is much more interesting specifically for you, not the one chosen by prof. It is applicable to other area of knowledge. Real Bio science classes are not the ones to take for general education, they are extremely challenging, top caliber students burn out in them. I do not anybody should take engineering classes fro general education either.</p>
<p>Real Bio science classes are not the ones to take for general education, they are extremely challenging,</p>
<p>Don’t many schools have biology as part of the science distribution requirements?
Since both physics & chem have higher math pre-reqs than biology usually does, students find themselves taking bio to fulfill that requirement.</p>
<p>“Real Bio science classes are not the ones to take for general education, they are extremely challenging, top caliber students burn out in them.” </p>
<p>I don’t agree with that statement, at all, unless you are talking about schools that are essentially pre-professional, technical training. A liberal arts school, at least, should have room in its “real Bio science” classes for non-majors, and what’s more, it should encourage those non-majors to take real courses in science. More of our graduates need to take science classes, whether they’re science majors or not; more students need to be really well-educated, not allowed to sequester themselves in the subjects they feel safe in. The division between people who know what science is about, and people whose last course was in high school, leads to (for example) policy makers with no idea that science is not a matter of opinion.</p>
<p>"Doctors have done a great job at limiting the number of new entrants into their field by making it SOOO difficult to get into medicine. That’s what keeps the salaries so high. "</p>
<p>Wait! What did doctors do? How do doctors limit the number of new entrants? Do you mean the AMA? I may have heard something about that, but you may keep up with the AMA more than most doctors. I hear the percentage of docs that belong is pretty small. Besides, who need’s more doctors when so many prefer “AP’s” anyway?Doctors have done a great job at limiting the number of new entrants into their field by making it SOOO difficult to get into medicine. That’s what keeps the salaries so high. </p>
<p>" ^Amount of debt and malpractice insurance are keeling salaries high. The other factors are secondary. "</p>
<p>People trusting the advice they get off the internet more than they trust their “providers” might contribute as well. </p>
<p>Ok, sorry about my mini rant…</p>
<p>Getting just a little closer to the topic, biology has always been a favorit subject of mine, and I am not sure why discussion would not be helpful. sure there is a lot of memorization, but of you appreciate the elegance of how it all works (or doesn’t!), it is probably easier.</p>
<p>Your student shoudl take whatever she wishes. However, if she takes a real science Bio, she should be prepared to work extremely hard and compete with crazy competitive pre-meds who need college GPA of 3.6+ to apply to med. school, so they absolutely cannot afford less than “A” in frist Bio class as most of them will go on taking much harder classes. There is no “pre-professional, technical training” for them,they go to regular UG’s, including LACs and whatever they wish. Why then not taking engineering to be completely all around educated person? at least engineering classes are not memorization, they are conceptual and should be easier for people with great math backgrounds who love solving problems applying logical thinking.</p>
<p>shrinkrap…last figures i heard…only about 20% of physicians have joined ama and a large percentage of those are residents…My H hasnt renewed his membership for years and always goes off when he sees statements that “doctors support XXX” when it comes from ama</p>
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<p>Most universities’ breadth requirements in science (if any) can be fulfilled by easy courses for non-majors. Only at a few schools, like MIT, do H/SS majors have to take the “real” introductory science and math courses for their breadth requirements. Some schools, like Brown and Amherst, have no breadth requirements at all.</p>
<p>It is generally pretty rare for H/SS majors to take science courses intended for those majoring in those subjects, unless they are pre-meds in biology, or they start as STEM majors but switch to H/SS later.</p>
<p>On the other hand, H/SS departments typically offer only courses suitable for majors, so STEM majors typically have to join H/SS majors in their breadth courses. However, some of those H/SS courses are less rigorous than the could / should be, and some STEM majors do seek out those particular courses.</p>
<p>Most universities’ breadth requirements in science (if any) can be fulfilled by easy courses for non-majors.</p>
<p>My experience was with my daughters schools.
No rocks for jocks courses as far as I can tell.</p>