Why small liberal arts colleges? Who cares about community and friendships.

Applying to College
1

<p>So I just had this long argument with my friend.</p>

<p>I currently go to the UofM, and absolutely hate it. It's large, impersonal, and runs like a fortune 500 company. No matter how many activities I'm involved with, I'm still disconnected... and it's affecting me personally, and probably will affect me academically in the future. I can see myself slipping through the cracks if the next 3 years continue like this one. </p>

<p>So, I'm applying for transfer to some liberal arts colleges/universities. My friend thought I was ridiculous, because I'm going to a prestigious University and getting good grades. She censured me saying my college experience would never be "ideal" (in her words) and that wanting to go off to some small college, where I believe community will be maximized, would be pointless. She says it wouldn't change all that much, and that I'd still be unhappy. She told me that college isn't about "friendships and communities," but rather, what I do <em>after</em> college. I told her my plans after college were to join the peace corps, and then maybe graduate school... and that going to a LAC would probably put me at an advantage when applying. </p>

<p>Her mentality is exactly what frustrates me about the UofM. Today, kids are so obsessed with this idea of getting ahead on an "economic ladder." I see freshman eagerly trying to get internships, and students desperately wanting to major in business. I can't help but wonder why there is no value in wanting a liberal arts education. Why the big emphasis on pre-professional/vocational training? It just seems like the pursuit of knowledge doesn't exist anymore, and that everyone goes about their day thinking how they could gain fiscally, instead of personally or academically. </p>

<p>Among so many other things, this is why I want to go to a small LAC. I'm supposed to be in college, not some "economic race track" (excuse all the metaphors). I will have my whole life to try to land the job, try to get a promotion, and then try to buy the hottest car to impress my neighbors. For now, I want to be a college student. I want to honestly grow as a person -- and truly pursue academics for what they are. I'm not here to be superficial about learning, thinking that it's just some stepping stone for good grades and eventually a six figure income. </p>

<p>What ever happened to wanting to learn, just to learn?</p>

2

<p>I would argue that the quality of education and life at many LAC's is better than the average large University. It's not for everyone, but personalized attention, smaller class sizes, better advising, and more of a sense of community definitely matters. Community isn't all about friendships; there is no doubt that you can make friendships at any school. Instead, it might refer to the fact that the people around you care about your success, and that your college can give you individualized support. That being said, there are some drawbacks to smaller schools, such as less research opportunities, less prestige, smaller endowment. The choice between a LAC and a research University is important, and if you think that a LAC would better suit your academic needs, then it seems to me that transferring would be the way to go.</p>

3

<p>I know how you feel. I'm a passionate intellectual - sort of an anomaly in my town, which is full of pressure-cooker over-achievers who apply to schools simply for the name. I'm looking at all LACs, except my parents want me to apply to Boston University as a match/safety. When I went to visit the school, I was turned off immediately; it felt very impersonal and more like a factory than an environment conducive to thinking and learning. So I'm sticking with the LACs, because I want to go to a school where everyone is passionate about something, whether it be literature (which I love), philosophy, or chemistry. What frustrates me about this whole process is that the only two chances I have to show the schools how genuinely passionate I am are through my essay and through an interview, since the rest of my application consists of numbers that everyone else has as well. And, unfortunately, interviews don't seem to have much weight.</p>

<p>I'm remaining optimistic, though. I know that no matter what school I go to, I'll find at the very least a group of kids who appreciate learning for its own sake as I do. But until then, I have to put up with over-achieving kids at my high school who take AP courses simply for the grade and not for the learning experience. I feel like I'm the only person in my AP US History course who actually enjoys the subject matter. <em>sigh</em></p>

<p>On a related note, I recently read an article in the NY Times about America's supposed "hostility" towards intellectualism: Hand-wringing</a> About American Culture - Are Americans Hostile to Knowledge? - New York Times</p>

4

<p>This is precisely why I chose a small college.</p>

<p>I go to a very large public HS, but am fortunate to go to a large public HS that believes strongly in Small Learning Communities...so really, my graduating class (from my SLC) is only 150. I need something like that in college.</p>

<p>There's nothing wrong with you...you're going to college for the right reason, and a lot of people can't learn (and in turn get ahead) in an environment where they feel like a number.</p>

5

<p>This is pretty much exactly why my son's college list was very light on big universities. What he <em>wanted</em> in a college experience had a lot to do with close community, friendships, common academic ground, and intellectual emphasis. </p>

<p>Your decision is fine, it's not crazy. Your friend may want something else out of college, but there are plenty of people just like you who want what you want out of college. And that's why there are still so many LAC's out there -- because there are students to fill them. </p>

<p>As to what happened to wanting to learn, it's alive and well at places like Reed, U Chicago, St. John's, and tons of other schools.</p>

6

<p>i think the mentality these days is "If you aren't gonna take the opportunties presented, someone else will take advantage of you"</p>

7

<p>I went to UCLA (a long time ago, but . . . ) My experience was very similar to the one you seem to be having, and I so wish I had transferred to a small LAC. Go for it!</p>

8

<p>I tend to have the motto, "I'm not here to make friends, I'm here to learn." I could really care less how many friends I make, I just want to get the best education possible and that's really all that matters to me. But I'm not a social person anyway. But what works for you works. If you're unhappy somewhere, there's no point in staying.</p>

9

<p>to the OP, be sure to visit the schools you are considering before you enroll. LACs and smaller U's have definite feels, and just because the concept is right for you does not mean that a particular school will.</p>

<p>However I must disagree with your blanket condemnation of frosh pursuing internships, pre-professional advising, etc. You seem to inhabit a black-and-white world where if something has one attribute it can't have others. Who is to say that someone planning on a career and getting internships to prepare for it can't also be passionate about the liberal arts and want to make the most of that opportunity while in college. While LACs have great advantages compared to the larger U (smaller classes, personal attention, students engaged in discussion, etc) you might be disappointed to find that many of the kids are just as focused on what they will do after college as what they learn while in college. In short, not all are blinded by the ivory tower.</p>

<p>Finally, let your friend have her own ideas of what college is for. It's her life. Just don't let her decide what college should mean to you.</p>

10

<p>You know whether you're unhappy, and why. But your friend is right in one thing...no college experience is perfect.</p>

<p>Be careful not to believe that going to a LAC will necessarily solve all of your problems. Be careful about the stereotypes of LACs vs. big state schools. I have known students in LACs who were socially isolated and felt as though they had no real community. I have known students in big schools who found community and friendship in small pockets of the school.</p>

<p>
[quote]
However I must disagree with your blanket condemnation of frosh pursuing internships, pre-professional advising, etc. You seem to inhabit a black-and-white world where if something has one attribute it can't have others. Who is to say that someone planning on a career and getting internships to prepare for it can't also be passionate about the liberal arts and want to make the most of that opportunity while in college.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>mikemac said this better than I was going to.</p>

11

<p>I'm going to against the sentiment in this thread and advise you to actually listen to your friend. From what I can tell, you're an idealist. Unfortunately, you're setting yourself up to be disappointed. The key is how you ADAPT to a school. Take, for example, U of Michigan. </p>

<p>Think of it as a circular hole. You're an oval. If you could scrunch a bit, you'll be a good fit. Maybe you transfer to Williams, a square (the geometric figures are arbitrary). You're no better than when you started. Very few people find a school that seems to be 100% perfect from every standpoint, and you shouldn't expect that much. Instead of improving yourself, you seem to demand everything fall in place for you.</p>

<p>So I guess the essence of my post is: Suck it up, make a close-knit group of friends and your college experience will be 100x better. I have a few really close friends at my school (16000+ UG), and I've never felt lonely or isolated.</p>

12

<p>I went to an LAC for two years and then transferred to a large, respected univ. like Michigan. </p>

<p>What I found at the big university was people who were truly in college and there because they wanted to be. At the small LAC, I found people who had stumbled from high school into college and didn't really know why. It was very much an extension of high school. I found the culture of learning for the sake of learning far richer and more mature at the university as well. Also, people were just as career oriented at the LAC as anywhere else.</p>

<p>I also had as strong a sense of community at the big univ as I did the LAC. You might be falling into idealism or i might have just had a bad experience.</p>

13

<p>Some people thrive in NYC and others like Mayberry. Most people in both feel part of a larger community.</p>

14

<p>Collevtiv- Even though no school is perfect, some are definitely better fits. Personally, I wouldn't go to a big school and adapt- I'll adapt for the rest of my life, college is my chance to choose where I want to be.</p>

<p>OHgiraffe- I completely agree. I love LACs, for the following reasons:
-Quirky People
-Community
-More Discussion (so therefore I learn more)
-Love of Learning </p>

<p>People are less concerned with learning and enjoying themselves and more concerned with money... it's sad.</p>

15

<p>I don't think my desires in a college experience are idealistic at all: smaller, more student focused, and surrounded by an atmosphere that fosters intellectual pursuit. I'm not saying that big Universities don't supply this, and I'm also not saying that all LAC experiences provide this as well -- and that is why I didn't apply to every single LAC in the U.S., but only to the ones I thought would be a good fit for me. What I do believe though, is that LACs are generally more adherent to the qualities I want in a college experience.</p>

<p>CollectivSynergy, it's also kind of unfair say that I'm set up for failure because of my attitude. Also, telling me to suck it up is like slapping a band-aid on a massive problem. In the end it's not going to fix it. I honestly think the college experience works 50/50. 50% is your attitude, and I will explain my attitude in the next paragraph, and 50% is the <em>actual</em> college itself (atmosphere, collective student body and their collective attitudes, values, etc.). </p>

<p>My time at the UofM hasn't been spent sulking in my dorm room about how horrible of a place this is. I'm extremely involved (3+ activities), and even a daily staff writer for the newspaper. I also do have a group of friends; I'm not the depressed kid who has doesn't have any. I would consider myself to be socially normal -- so trying to be more social with others is totally irrelevant. My amount of involvement is, without a doubt, exceeding the majority of other student's on this campus, and yet I am still unhappy and feel disconnected. It's not because I'm some kind of misanthropic elitist, who avoids friendship or lacks school spirit, but I feel lost. Every single day it feels like running around a hamster wheel (there I go with the metaphors again). It has the feeling of a large impersonal company, where there is no intellectual depth from the students because of the "ivory tower:" undergrad business school, etc. I've met a ton of people, and for the most part they're pretty much how I described them above, but that doesn't mean I haven't met people who are like me. The problem is, we're definitely the minority... and being in such a large university we have no choice but to band together. Although, after we hang out or go to dinner, then what? More shallow interactions with others, and the like? All of us are pretty dissatisfied with our first years here and in fact, we all want to transfer. </p>

<p>I came to the University of Michigan because I used to be like the kids I meet here. I came here for the undergraduate business program, and now I totally disdain it. If anything, I've found myself and what I truly cherish and value in an education. And now that I've discovered who I am and what I want, I know that I should to get out of here -- where I feel submitted to a culture I do not agree with. </p>

<p>And to mikemac, I totally agree with you. My blanket condemnation is exempt from the black-and-white cases. I also think having pursuits are great, but to the kids who are "blinded by the ivory tower," then I really could care less.</p>

16

<p>OHG, you eloquently describe your conundrum, and in doing so sound like a typical Wesleyan, Reed, Carleton, or Bowdoin student. Not surprised you feel like a fish out of water there. So transfer if you want - you'll definitely find a similar mindset at these and many other top LACs. My only caveat: part of the community established at any LAC is establshed in that freshman year. Coming in as a transfer you are an outsider and will need to try harder to break into the LAC bubble. Doesn't mean you shouldn't follow your gut and transfer. Good luck.</p>

17

<p>You should definitely transfer. I think you've made the best decision for yourself already and are just looking for support in making it. College is about learning and you have experienced the big university with the business people to know it's not a good fit for you. If you'd never done that, perhaps you would always wonder what you're missing out on. Now you know. </p>

<p>The only other option would be to find a different major or group of people to associate with at Michigan who align more with your new values (the business crowd can be tough) - essentially make Michigan a new place. But, short of that, the right LAC sounds perfect for you. </p>

<p>SarahsDad is right, though. When I transferred into the big university, I found firmly established cliques and we "transfers" formed our own clique until we integrated more with the campus. You probably won't have that sort of a luxury at an LAC. The groups are generally well established. Nothing to deter you - just to be aware.</p>

<p>Good luck. Sounds like you're making a great decision for yourself.</p>

18

<p>Thanks everyone for the great feedback and discussion in this thread.</p>

<p>Bowdoin does, in fact, happen to be my #1 pick. I was wait listed there when I applied as a freshman, but did not visit or pursue it.</p>

19

<p>

so I take it you're a loner?</p>

20

<p>I wouldn't really say I'm a loner, I'm just not much of a social butterfly. I love my alone time, but I have plenty of friends too.</p>