Why technology is short of women

Parents Forum
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<p>I read this article in last weeks USA Today <a href=“http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/technology/maney/2007-02-20-allen-am-turing-award_x.htm[/url]”>http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/technology/maney/2007-02-20-allen-am-turing-award_x.htm</a></p>

<p>Very interesting article but some of the stats that it quoted blew me away. “At colleges across the country, female engineering students are rarer than truffles. Youngstown State University this month reported that 93 of 971 engineering students are women. Case Western Reserve has 201 women among its 1,908 engineering students. Those percentages are pretty typical anywhere.” I can’t believe that the numbers are so low. I know that they only reported numbers from two schools but CWRU is a very selective university and I would think that they would be able to recruite women in bigger numbers. As a mother to a D who is very interested in an engineering career, we’ve been told that about 20% of engineering majors are women. Is it in fact even less, closer to 10%? Are women who are strong in math and science picking pre-med or hard sciences over engineering? Are women finding that the “old boys network” too hard and once they enroll, are they switching out of engineering or computer science?</p>

<p>I also want to show some of the comments to this article. <a href=“http://blogs.usatoday.com/maney/2007/02/fran_allen_and_.html[/url]”>http://blogs.usatoday.com/maney/2007/02/fran_allen_and_.html</a> Some of the comments "Unfortunately you have been misinformed. Indeed, there are two areas where the genders differ in their abilities, according to the Educational Testing Service. Boys are inherently more inclined towards science and engineering. And girls are inherently more inclined towards verbal skills and communication.</p>

<p>See Warren Willingham and Nancy Cole, “Gender and Fair Assessment,” by ETS (1997). While every girl should have the opportunity to go into science and engineering, it is “ridiculous” to ask the neurological and biological impossible (gender parity in either science or communications).</p>

<p>Girls have been, and always will be, better at verbal and communication skills. USA Today will not be able to change biological reality. Yes, Lawrence Summers was right." </p>

<p>Wow, would someone please inform my mathie D that she shouldn’t be beating the boys at math and instead she be working at her verbal skills.</p>

<p>Another comment about why women are not in technology. 3. Very precise work environment. That is why it is called “computer science” and not “computer how do you feel today because you are having your period and you had an argument with your boyfriend and your parents are coming for the weekend and broke the heel on your new pumps last night”.</p>

<li>Predominantly male co-workers. Again, no one really cares “how you feel” nor does anyone really want to “talk about your issues”."</li>
</ol>

<p>This is so insulting. My D is very percise and anal. She’s been told that she is very gifted in math (and she is very good). Should she give up her career aspirations of being an engineer or math major and choose another major? (She’s not going to but I wonder about some of the people that she will meet and how that will affect her career choices).</p>

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<p>Interesting article. As an engineer, I am somewhat surprised. I would have guessed the number around 20% also. Not sure how many women in my D's school. I know she was worried that she would be the only one in a 24 student ME class this semester. </p>

<p>A few observations:</p>

<p>My D was exposed to more than her share of engineering related activities while growing up, but not as many as her older brother. She originally wanted to be a lawyer, so DH didn't envolve her in as many fix-it projects around the house or with the car. She was also busier with ECs. </p>

<p>Girls that excel at math and science usually excell across the board, leaving them many options. Where boys often do not put in as much effort in the subjects that do not interest them.</p>

<p>Engineering ciriculums are very rigid. Some schools are now offering seminar style classes that give students a better idea of potential careers as freshman and sophomores.</p>

<p>Most HS students don't take physics untill they are seniors. Many HS physics classes are not taught very well.</p>

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<p>deb:</p>

<p>The science of biologically based gender attributes is in its early stages. Some of the research is pretty good and pretty interesting. Other stuff is horrid dreck. I wouldn't take any of the conclusions to heart. People who respond to this kind of stuff generally have something they want to believe and spend a lot of time digging up stuff to reinforce their own preconceived notions.</p>

<p>Now, about your daughter. Even if it were to be proven true that, say, testosterone causes fundamental changes in the brain that make the brain better at spatial relations and processing numerical data, this would just be a tendency. Marie Curie won the Nobel Prize twice, as I recall. That was in an age when she faced many higher barriers than today's women face. </p>

<p>I happen to be acquainted with a young lady who explained to me how to estimate Pi when she was in the second grade, and she knew exactly what she was doing. She went on to win the Intel.</p>

<p>You needn't explain anything to your daughter except that she has the same or better chance at an engineering career as anyone else, if that's what she wants.</p>

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<p>DD really is interested in engineering. BUT she has noticed that it is not a particularly "sociable" profession. In other words, the engineers she has seen don't really interact except on a professional conversation level. She is not sure that she wants to use her math/science interests in engineering because she wants to be able to chat with people too. DH, the engineer, thinks this is odd. He "thinks" he chats with folks all the time. He's wrong. Perhaps this is why some women do not choose engineering. My husband's office is not the place where you would find conversation about upcoming wedding plans, childbirth, raising kids, even the weather. Don't get me wrong...they're a great group of people, but I couldn't work there for a day.</p>

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<p>BUT she has noticed that it is not a particularly "sociable" profession. In other words, the engineers she has seen don't really interact except on a professional conversation level.</p>

<p>I have to admit- some stereotypes are true
Personally- I think majors like education/engineering/business are best left to grad school- I think students should aim for a broader based education with at least a few classes- in areas outside their comfort zone.</p>

<p>Physics are or at least chem, for art majors, history of american music for bio majors. cultural anthropology for math majors, for example.
Not only to interact with wider variety of students on campus, but also because their future careers may likely be in fields that we can't even imagine now.</p>

<p>You can always specialize down the road, but harder to go back and get broad based knowledge to reference. IMO ;)</p>

<p>Anyway- what I was going to say was, the engineers I know who have a grad degree, but majored in something else, or have a strong interest in a complementing field, say music ( lots of math geeks who are musicians) aren't as say socially awkward, as those who only affliate with those who already know their "language"
( I think Ds music professor at Reed for example, has a grad degree in physics)</p>

<p>Overall though, many of people I know who are really interested in math, aren't that interested in "socializing" and certainly not at work.
Thats fine, but there are times when they have to make presentations, etc, and they hate it.</p>

<p>Talking "at" someone ( jabbing my brother in the ribs) isn't talking "with them". </p>

<p>But if the "engineering"ness of whatever field is what interests your daughter- by all means don't let the stereotypes hold her back.
She actually, I think will be at a distinct advantage, if she is comfortable talking to others outside the field.</p>

<p>For schools- if I had a daughter who really "got" math, and spent alot of time playing with it, I would probably have her consider colleges that had a range of majors, not just engineering- or tech, and also encourage her to get a math or physics degree, before engineering.</p>

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<p>'Wow, would someone please inform my mathie D that she shouldn't be beating the boys at math and instead she be working at her verbal skills.'</p>

<p>The point of the article isn't saying your mathie D shouldn't be pursuing engineering just that most girls aren't as naturally incline to engineering. An article bemoaning how the nations reading skills are below average likewise aren't telling all the writers around to dumb down.</p>

<p>Anyway should a professional career really be about sitting down to find someone to ' “talk about your issues”." I don't you'd find much time for socialising happens at any of the upper echelons of careers.</p>

<p>Gender doesn't come into this, she's gifted, and wants to choose a difficult but rewarding career path, and the same fears and issues would be just as pertinent to similar male applicants.</p>

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<p>My D is in mechanical engineering, junior at UIUC (actually just at senior status because of AP's going in), where women make up about 15% of the engineering class (it has actually been falling over the last few years despite recruiting efforts and treating women as URMs for the purpose of admission to engineering). You will find that a lower than 20% figure is true for majority of engineering schools. MIT tends to be an exception with 40% or more. You will also find that even when the figure for the college is around 20%, women have significantly higher percentages in chemical or biological engineering or environmental engineering (which is usually in the civil engineering area), often in the 30% to 40% range, and for other engineering majors it is closer to 10% or even less. What the figures also do not show is, that despite efforts to recruit more, the number/percentage of women who choose engineering for college has not really been increasing for over 15 years. As you have seen, there are some that advocate the reason is gender differences but those are generally unproven views.</p>

<p>Nevertheless, I do not believe any of the above is a reason to avoid engineering. In my D's case, it was her idea -- I encouraged over the years that she do well in math and science (which she did) but never suggested applying for engineering. She has had some college classes with 30 to 40 students where the number of women is 4 or less. This semester she is doing a coop and is in an engineering group that has 12 engineers and she is the only student coop and there is only one other woman. However, the supposed "evil" of having almost all male co-workers has not materialized as all in the group are treating her as an equal member of the team. She really likes it and has done well enough so far that they now have her involved in the design of new products. She is also involved in UIUC's recruiting efforts as a member of a group that visits high schools to encourage women to consider engineering.</p>

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<p>I would also heartily agree that your D should NOT give up her career aspirations of being an engineer or math major, simply because she's in the minority %. As a young female manager in IT about a billion years ago, when all the management was male, I had more than a few situations when I found I was one of the only females in the room. I just got used to it, and went with it. Personally, I'm the type of person at parties who usually ends up talking with the "man" group than with the women in the kitchen. </p>

<p>One thing I always tried to teach my 2 daughters is that they really CAN do anything. (The Berenstain Bears "He Bear, She Bear" was one of our early favorites). The only thing is that sometimes our D's will have to know that they will face some challenges ahead. More than once early in my career, I was criticized for getting promotions, etc. "just because" I was a female....I always felt that I had to prove myself a lot harder than my male co-workers. That said, I was confident in my abilities that I could handle those situations...but I was always very careful not to come across too much of a militant, either. It's sometimes a fine line to walk. I'm hoping that our D's will have a lot less of this ahead of them. I think the key is developing strong self-confidence, and doing what you are good at.</p>

<p>One of my D's college essays was why she is comfortable and loves being a math/science "nerd"...and tells about being the only female (and best student) in her computer programming class a couple of years ago (in a h.s. of over 2200 kids---I was amazed), and how this year she and another girl were the only females to show up for the first Tech-Connect club meeting after school. she said "and I'm sure she was only there for the pizza." The second girl never returned; my D's now dating the v.p. of the club! </p>

<p>I'd advocate that there's some nature and some nurture in this argument. My 2nd D hates math and will likely head the more traditional "female" route. I'm just happy that they have a choice.</p>

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<p>"BUT she has noticed that it is not a particularly "sociable" profession."</p>

<p>That may be true. Engineers are considered (and they might be) boring. (I am an engineer)</p>

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<p>Ugh, another quote from the article that deb922 linked:
"Expectations for service delivery are very high. The customer is usually unforgiving and extremely demanding. It is not unusual for people to either scream at you or attack you personally. Thick skin is a job requirement. Not a good place for someone who has 'self esteem issues' and who will internalize criticism and respond by becoming bulimic or anorexic or need therapy three days a week... IT is actually a lot of work! You are usually under staffed and over worked. Not a lot of time for talking on the phone, taking long lunches with co-workers or going shopping for new shoes on your lunch break."</p>

<p>That's so ugly I can't even justify it with a response.</p>

<p>I never saw sexism within engineering when I was in college -- most engineers are helplessly egalitarian when there's a problem set due, and they're not concerned with your gender or color as long as you can help crank through the problems. :) The sexism, I think, is mostly from without.</p>

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<p>Back when I was in engineering school, there were two women. Out of approximately 600 students. Oddly enough, both were named Karen. So it's gotten better in 30 some years.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Girls that excel at math and science usually excel across the board, leaving them many options. Where boys often do not put in as much effort in the subjects that do not interest them.

[/quote]
I think that tends to be true.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Most HS students don't take physics until they are seniors. Many HS physics classes are not taught very well.

[/quote]
Unfortunately, I think that tends to be true as well.</p>

<p>About women and engineering school, note that Smith College has a relatively new engineering program. Graduates are guaranteed admissions to Princeton for grad school. (I think it's Princeton...I dunno.)</p>

<p>My own D is a Mathie type, with Math being one of her double majors. That said, she'll probably use her Math background in some aspect of public policy or economics rather than be in a "techy" environment. Though she does like geeky Math guys. (Her words, not mine. Nothing wrong with being a geek. TheMom still makes fun that I'll have two or three pens of different colors in my pocket. But I deny that I ever wore a pocket protector. And I've had a few shirts to prove it.)</p>

<p>And I agree with the observation that while some engineers are boring, those with the broader educations are generally much more likely to be socially interesting.</p>

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<p>OP--Your D will be at a distinct advantage if she is an engineer who can talk! I'm thinking project manager, the person who organizes the work, who does presentations to the public on what the work is...She will be much in demand!</p>

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<p>I have two Ds - both currently enrolled as CS majors (UCSD and UCLA). I've also been in engineering for over 30 years. A few comments - </p>

<p>
[quote]
we've been told that about 20% of engineering majors are women. Is it in fact even less, closer to 10%?

[/quote]

In CS at the above Unis, it seems to be somewhere between 10-20% female. I asked my Ds if this bothered them and they said it didn't. I told them that they get the benefit of seeing what it's like to be in the minority.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Are women finding that the "old boys network" too hard and once they enroll, are they switching out of engineering or computer science?

[/quote]

I haven't seen any of this. It's really just a bunch of students all in a rigorous major. My Ds haven't experienced any bias against them other than the occasional incredulous "YOU'RE in engineering??" (because they're female). </p>

<p>The generalizations in the articles are simply just that - generalizations. Many females can handle engineering just fine and it really comes down to whether they're interested in it or not. A certain number of females might just not consider it because they've never thought about it that much and don't really know what it's all about. I see no reason why a female would have any more difficulties than a male as long as they have the interest. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Predominantly male co-workers. Again, no one really cares “how you feel” nor does anyone really want to “talk about your issues”."

[/quote]

Yes - it's mostly male. I say 'so what?' So was the medical doctor profession not all that long ago and look how that's changed. Obviously people care how others feel regardless of gender. I don't understand the 'talking your issues' comment. If it means the water-cooler talk that another poster was referring to, well it could be that the male engineers will be more likely to talk sports than growing daisies (I'm grossly sterotyping and don't believe it) but that's true with any population. Also, just because many of the other engineers are male doesn't mean there are no other females in the office - there generally are.</p>

<p>
[quote]
BUT she has noticed that it is not a particularly "sociable" profession. In other words, the engineers she has seen don't really interact except on a professional conversation level.

[/quote]

Well, IMO people are at work primarily to work and it's true that many engineers are under deadlines and may not have time for too much socializing. It's a profession that takes concentration and one can't perform it (juggling algorithms or equations and varibles in one's head) while idly chit-chatting. There are many other professions where the similar thing is true. In down times though, they chat just like everyone else.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I think majors like education/engineering/business are best left to grad school

[/quote]

With engineering there's simply too much material to learn to put it off to grad school and IMO it's not necessary. Engineers learn more than just engineering also - they have to take the GEs and other courses just like everyone else. Many engineers are taking effectively almost double the course load and more than double the workload (i.e. homework) than many other majors. Rigor rules.</p>

<p>I'd encourage your D to follow the path that she chooses and to not worry about the generalizations other people, usually those not actually involved in the area in the first place, are making. Engineering/CS is a fine profession for women as well as men.</p>

<p>Now for a potential side benefit for women - Computer Science and programming are areas with some of the greatest opportunity for telecommuting. For some women who think they'd like to work in the office for a few years then have kids and want to stay home with the kids yet still work, CS offers some great potential.</p>

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<p>I have two sisters with degrees in engineering. The oldest has a BS in Computer and Electrical Engineering and an MS in EE. (I think these were her 3rd and 4th degrees, by the way -- likes school!) The younger one has a BS in Computer Science and an MSEE. When the older one was in school, she was one of about 2 women in most of her classes. The sister who is 7 years younger had more female classmates.</p>

<p>Neither sister is currently working as an engineer. The older sister worked for 10 or 15 years (patents to her name, multiple papers etc.) but went on to pursue another field. She should have just pursued a PhD in physics or something -- she just gets bored.</p>

<p>The younger sister works in marketing for a technology company and is a global executive. Her engineering degrees validate her in many situations -- she can hold her own in a technical discussion. But I think life as an engineer just wasn't as much fun for her as marketing is. I don't think the issue of women in engineering has anything to do with innate ability, but may have something to do with personality -- both sisters are true extroverts.</p>

<p>Engineering offers tremendous opportunities for anyone, but like many fields, its changing nature requires continuing education. Technology changes so fast these days that it's important to keep up. It can be financially rewarding, although sometimes it feels insecure. (think of IT moving to India) If your D is interested, she should certainly pursue an engineering degree. There are many options available, beyond actually designing systems. There seem to be a lot of Wall Street firms interested in those with technical degrees, and it can be a wonderful background for patent law, marketing, medicine and a variety of other fields that may not appear obvious at first glance. The curriculum will ensure that she is one smart cookie when she's finished!</p>

<p>One last thought -- I do think it's a fairly intense work environment. I don't think there's a lot of chitchat about non work related stuff, becuase there's always pressure to meet a deadline. But that's true of many fields.</p>

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<p>Thanks to everyone who has responded. You have shared many stories from engineers who happen to be women and parents who have women who are engineering/CS majors.</p>

<p>I guess part of what prompted me to post this article was that I had lunch with a friend last week. She asked me, "was I going to LET my D be an engineering major". I said, "of course, she can do whatever makes her happy". She then asked, "well does she like math", and I replied "that yes, she was quite good at it". Seemed such a strange comment in this day and age and then I found that article.</p>

<p>TheDad, if it was up to me, I would rather that she use her math skills in business than engineering. But I'm not making that call, I do want her to look at schools where she could have the option of going in a more business enviroment. I would really like her to look at Smith. She was put off by the website and the "whole women sentiment". It seems that she doesn't want to be well rounded but rather have a school that is more one dimensional! Don't ask, I try. </p>

<p>astrophysicsmom, I love your approach. It's the same one we've employed with our D. She used to be involved in creative problem solving (OM). She only wanted to build structures, and was very good at it. She finally quit when she couldn't get any girls to be on a building team and the boys didn't want her on the team. (She was in JH and the boys were not happy that the girl could kick their you know whats).</p>

<p>Thanks to everyone who has responded. It confirms what she (and her dad and I) feels, that you can't be what your not. And if that is a math nerd, so be it.</p>

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<p>Deb</p>

<p>for what it is worth my son looked at a few schools where you can do a major in engineering and a minor in business (takes more than 4 years though)</p>

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<p>The Smith program is directed toward training female engineering managers. With a 3.5 GPA, they have guaranteed engineering grad school admissions at Darmouth, Princeton, Johns Hopkins, UMichigan, Notre Dame, and Tufts. The idea is to train engineers with the people skills and writing skills to move into upper management. (though several have apparently chosen to go to med school.)</p>

<p>They have no lack of applicants.</p>

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<p>I'm not the OP, but I do believe our daughter will major in a technology related field once she figures out what she is going to major in. She is taking courses right now as part of her school's core curriculum, but they are all required courses for degrees in the sciences or engineering. She is a very analytical and organized kid...always has been. She is interested in how things go together and how they work, and how they can be changed. And she also knows she will be the one of few females majoring in the sciences but that doesn't bother her at all. My guess is that her "social self" will be an asset in the end. In a year or so, I'll let you all know how this teases out!!</p>

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<p>If you think that engineers who can speak with some articulation are at a premium, try looking at those who can write well.</p>

<p>The old "it used to be I couldn't spell ingineer but now I are one" riff is alive and well. (Hard "g" in "ingineer.")</p>

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<p>Gee - thanks TheDad.</p>