Why the low 4-year grad rate and high transfer out rate?

Colleges and Universities A-Z New College of Florida
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<p>I was looking through New College of Florida statistics from the National Center of Education and I came across these: </p>

<p>First Year Student Retention (full-time students): 82%
Transfer Out Rate: 33%
4-Year Graduation Rate: 45%
6-Year Graduation Rate: 63%</p>

<p>I am just curious to know of any possible factors contributing to the relatively low 4-year graduation rate and high transfer out rates (especially from current New College students!) when compared to other institutions of similar caliber, as most of the colleges that are my application list (UNC Chapel Hill, Macalester, William & Mary) have graduation rates from 70-80% and transfer out rates under 10%.</p>

<p>Thanks all!</p>

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<p>New College is an academically demanding LAC situated in Sarasota, FL with an 800 student populous. Being in a sleepy town without typical ‘stuff-to-do’ you would find at University (football games, etc) and the scaled-down social scene, combined with going to a challenging school is enough to make many leave. New College also does not have grades which some find they are not suited to; believe it or not, no grades leads to <em>more</em> work/stress…not less. Finally, we have to write a thesis our senior year which many wish not to do (be it b/c they might not want to go to grad school, or other reasons). All of this said, I just finished my first semester and love it here…couldn’t have imagined going anywhere else :slight_smile: </p>

<p>Rest assured, all who graduate NCF leave with the best liberal-arts, undergraduate education in the State of Florida - period. I would <em>highly</em> recommend applying here if you are motivated and willing to work.</p>

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<p>While New College is an amazing school for academically motivated students, it’s definitely not for everyone. Some students matriculate thinking that “no grades” means not having to work hard in your courses…get quite a rude awakening and usually end-up leaving. Others, as 301traviss says, leave for a more traditional college life elsewhere or find that they want to pursue a degree not offered by NCF such as business or journalism.</p>

<p>As far as the graduation rate, as a parent of a 4th year, I’ve observed a few things going on. First, the thesis process is very daunting. It’s nothing like the typical thesis students write at other colleges to get a degree with honors, it’s closer to the level of what a grad student would write at a top university. It truly takes at least a year, sometimes more, of research to prepare and write one (working long hours each day…including the summer and holidays). Then, once the thesis is written, just weeks before graduation…a committee of professors (in front of an audience) will question the student in detail over the subject matter presented in the thesis. After this, that committee meets and decides whether the student will graduate. Every year there are students either unable to complete their thesis or do not pass the committee. Some choose to return as a 5th or 6th year, some transfer to another college to get their degree. Another problem we have found, and this may be program specific, that advisers also don’t always give students much in the way of direction, so unless you are on top of what courses are needed for your post graduate plans, you may find yourself as a 4th year still needing additional courses. Your education at NCF, while excellent, is very self-directed though I think some faculty may be helpful if you seek them out. We also know of some students who choose to stay for a 5th or 6th year…we think of them as “addicted” to the New College lifestyle (it is quite a nice place).</p>

<p>In a nutshell, I think these reasons explain the dismal retention and graduation rates. I wish NCF did a better job communicating these downsides to potential students and perhaps these rates would improve if students really understood what they’re getting into. That said, hands down there is no better academic program in the state and I would say the education students receive is close to the level of the elite LACs (NCF suffers in the rankings due to those low graduation/retention rates and it being a small public funded college/endowment/alumni giving).</p>

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<p>Oi, thanks 301traviss and 2forcollege. Do either of you, or anyone else, for that matter, know the percentage of students (or even a rough percentage?) who do not pass the committee for senior thesis? (I don’t think it is listed on the site, as I just tried a search.) Or do only a small minority (i.e. 10%> or maybe even less) fail to pass the committee?</p>

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<p>It’s a VERY small number that don’t pass each year, I don’t know if they would publish a number like that anywhere. But each year you know of a few that don’t make it. Last year it happened to one of my D’s friends.</p>

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<p>I can help answer that because I attended (and graduated, no less) from NCF.</p>

<p>First: at NCF a student directs his/her own education. Knowing how to direct one’s education is a formidable task, especially for a student who is accustomed to having a school guidance counselor direct make the decisions for the student. This absolves the student of both the responsibility and blame for decisions poorly made. Suddenly being faced with such a huge task can be overwhelming. </p>

<p>Second: the ambiguity of having no grades has a tendency to make a student overcompensate. This is especially true, I found, for students who had no experience outside of high school. I was a transfer student (to NCF) from a state university, so I had experience in knowing what amount of work was good enough to make an A or a B in a traditional college. I knew what it took to produce that amount of work, and I had learned which shortcuts to take and when to make them. With the experience of a traditional college behind me I had also learned how to pace myself without burning out–something many NCF students do NOT know how to do. That is why they find it such a relief to return to a more traditional (with grades) academic setting.</p>

<p>Third: There is a higher number of (what I call) “blowhards” at NCF than elsewhere. These students are articulate, bombastic know-it-alls who can, and will, have a tendency to drone on and on about a certain topic, which will create doubt within those students who, while still intellectually at the same level, may not have quite the same big ego. At Harvard ti is called “second semester syndrome”. After coming down off the first semester “high” of being admitted to Harvard, the second semester brings the student the shock of reality that there are other students who are superior, more qualified, and more accomplished than he/she. </p>

<p>Because I was a slightly older (age 23) student when I transferred to NCF I could look at my fellow students more objectively and I was not intimidated by their immature bravado. Had I been the same age, though, I might have felt differently.</p>

<p>I do know of three individuals who, after their fifth year at NCF, had to transfer out to a traditional institution to complete their degrees. There is something about NCF and the thesis process that can be overwhelming to a student and he/she develops avoidance, etc. etc. I think those undergrad students who have some inkling of an idea or passion that they want to expound upon even before they enter NCF are probably the best candidates for retention.</p>

<p>I agree with the previous poster: NCF might do better if it were to make clearer to potential students what an education at NCF actually entails. </p>

<p>Hope that helps!</p>

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<p>I’d like to thank everyone who posted details concerning the level of academic expectations. My son was accepted today at New College and this information is very helpful and reassuring :)</p>

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<p>Homeschooling, congratulations to your son!</p>

<p>I attended New College back when it was the ultimate Hippie U. (1969-1974 – yep, I took time off in the middle!) Just recently I wondered whether I should encourage my (home-schooled) son to apply. New College offers very generous merit aid to National Merit Finalists, and that is a huge inducement. But, if it is anywhere near as weird as it was when I attended, well, I don’t know… I managed to survive there – and I even made great friends – although I was a really bad “fit.” (Catholic, ex-hippie.) However, I’m not at all sure I would do it all over again if I had the chance. I have very ambivalent feelings about the place. Sometimes, when I read the alumni newsletters, I can’t help thinking, “I can’t believe I went to this ZOO!”</p>

<p>Maybe it’s very different now from the way it was then, though. I don’t mean to sound discouraging. Do you live near enough to visit? I would definitely recommend a visit!</p>

<p>BTW, it’s nice to find another home-schooler hereabouts. Sometimes I feel like a freak at CC – everyone else is talking about APs and weighted GPAs, and it’s as if they’re speaking Urdu. It’s a whole different world from home school.</p>

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<p>chicabuena – is the library still smallish? I always found that problematic. Here I was supposed to do this big fat master’s-level thesis…but the library didn’t even have most of the stuff I needed. It’s ridiculous to have to rely so much on interlibrary loan. Of course, today, in the Internet age, resources are more readily available.</p>

<p>A related note: My son is planning to major in history, so I looked up the history faculty and course offerings at New College. I was stunned by how meager the American history offerings were. Usually college history programs overemphasize American history, if anything. I remember Justus Doenecke (sp?)…I guess they haven’t yet found anyone of his caliber to replace him? That’s always the danger with very small LACs. When I was at New College, a friend was taking Italian; then the Italian professor left and wasn’t rerplaced, and voila’ – my friend could no longer study Italian. It was rather abrupt, shall we say!</p>

<p>OK, I’ll post some positive stuff later, LOL!</p>

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<p>Hi LadyDianeski,</p>

<p>It’s always wonderful to connect with a kindred spirit. Gosh, that sounds very “New Collegish” I suppose. :slight_smile: I also attended an “alternative” college years ago. </p>

<p>My sense of New College is that it has matured with time. I spent some time reading through some of the student thesis available on the website. They are remarkable. I think it really depends on the individual student - how self-directed, truly passionate in pursuing knowledge, etc. As homeschoolers we’ve always unearthed ways to meet academic needs.</p>

<p>From what I’ve learned, I believe New College can offer an amazing education to the right student, but it is not for everyone. My son has no interest whatsoever in attending anything but a LAC for undergraduate studies. (After interviewing at Yale, he told me he loved the college but not until he was ready for graduate school. He felt it was too big. LOL. So, he didn’t apply.).</p>

<p>It is important for a school to have the academic resources to support a student’s area of interest. With that having been said, many students change their minds after their first year. This happened to my oldest who went to a college which was strong in her intended major and she subsequently changed her major. The resources for her new academic area of focus are limited. This is the drawback of the LAC. Nonetheless, she’s found the support of faculty to tap into new resources. I suspect this would be the same at New College.</p>

<p>My son will not be making a final decision until April and we will definitely visit.</p>

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<p>Hmm, checking in here…About the library, it is still “smallish”, but no fault of New College. It shares the facility with USF/Sarasota branch campus and it just doesn’t have the student body to require a huge library. </p>

<p>I visited the campus for the 50th Anniversary celebration. The students have not changed since I attended. There was still the barefoot contingent, walking around in 50 degrees at night with no shoes on. There were still the one or two boys wearing skirts (ankle length) to make a “gender neutral” statement. Dreadlocks, Birkenstocks and Bob Dylan/Janis Joplin lookalikes. </p>

<p>I took family members and friends with me. One friend is a recent UF grad who is adamant about being a “hippie”. To him, everything in life is “peace-love-trippey”. Well, he wasn’t there for more than 5 minutes and wanted to leave. He was uncomfortable with the vibe. On the other hand, another in our group, a polished young lady (red turtleneck, tight black pants and elegant black boots, big gold hoop earrings) said the student body felt comfy to her [despite her normal-looking exterior she’s quite odd; she has already applied and is awaiting a decision]. And then there was my niece–who was the captain of her h/s soccer team and a confident, open-minded woman–applied sight unseen and was accepted at NC last year. She came down to visit and hated it, ended up going to UF. So, who can say? </p>

<p>About the academics, I agree with the others: it takes a certain type of student to 1) want to go to NC and to 2) want to see the journey through. The curriculum is not much harder than any other school, but the energy that goes into directing one’s own education can be incredibly draining. Even some of the most intelligent people I know work far better being told what to do in advance; trying to figure out on their own what to do next is torture for them. </p>

<p>Homeschooling, I have tried to send you a private message.</p>

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<p>The Cook library is not a shared facility, though local Floridians, including students at other schools, are welcome to use it.</p>