<p>Sharkbite- I wouldn't worry about your teachers incorporating your ECs. This is exactly what my daughter's teachers did last year, and the recommendations turned out perfectly. By including some of her ECs, they were able to get across that my daughter was a really well-rounded human with a special talent for writing. Her test scores were not CC level (only about 97-98th percentile-gasp), but she got into 8 great schools. When I met her admissions officer at one school at new admittee's weekend, I told her how honored we were to be there and asked her if she minded telling me what one thing set my daughter apart from the 18,000 kids who were not accepted. She told me that my daughter just came across as one of those children who could do many things well (note, not the best, but well) and that her recommendations were beautiful and conveyed a sense of how much the authors loved her.</p>
<p>This U PENN Early Decision article (posted elswhere) shows how a backstabbing teacher can kill someone's chances</p>
<p>The particular female had a 1480 SAT and took the hardest courses in a high performance school, ended up in the top 15% and was blasted by the Committee for increasing her score by 120 points and was tagged (using twisted logic) as lazy or and underperformer. (actually it probably means she wasn't professionally coached and simply improved via experience)</p>
<p>However the final blow was a teacher in a recommendation said she had committed the crime of once turning work in late - and since she had indicated in her application she had an interest in BIOETHICS - this applicant went into the REJECT PILE. The logic of course was amazing - however AD COMs via the "holistic" (test scores don't matter and sometime not grades) method can pretty much do whatever they want - and can for example assign URMs any virtue they want to yet for those like this girl not having the right skin color - well just about anything can put them into the reject bin</p>
<p>The key ingredient in all this is honesty- a teacher shouldn't imply he will give you a great recommendation and then torpedo you on the form. I think a simple, "I can't really provide a positive recommendation for that school," "I'd be happy to give you a positive recommendation," or, "I think you'd be a great fit there, I'll write a very positive letter," would tell the student what he/she needs to know. And the letter shouldn't be full of false praise, but should accurately reflect the teacher's opinion.</p>
<p>Earlier, someone raised the question of why a teacher needs to know about ECs. It's a great idea to give a summary of ECs, awards, and other important details to you rec-writers. That info may jog the teacher's memory and let her write a more detailed letter with specific details and anecdotes. ("Despite playing varsity basketball and working at the homeless shelter for several hours each night, Jennifer has excelled in my class, not only arriving in class fully prepared but usually bringing keen insights..." sounds a lot better than "Jennifer is one of my top students." ;))</p>
<p>As far as recommendations having a major admissions role, they probably won't unless they are quite bad (particularly if they imply dishonesty or other character flaws) or good enough to provide an important insight into the applicant's persona or abilities. No doubt there's a bell curve of recommendations, with the big middle area being composed of positive but relatively uninsightful statements.</p>
<p>In my expereince most teachers will not talk about the negatives in your rec. If they have very little good to say, the rec will be very short. Very few teachers will highlight the bad stuff (unless you cheated). </p>
<p>The trick to getting a good rec is to realize that your grade has very little to do with your rec. If you got an A without working, or being awake in class, your rec will be bad. If you work very hard, ask for help, take a genuine interest in the class, get involved, etc. but you only get a B because the subject is not your strong point, the teacher may give you a good rec because you worked hard and earned your grade. Studnets have to realize that a high grade is not an automatic good rec. </p>
<p>Advise to juniors: suck up to one history/english teacher and one science/math teacher and be as active as you can in the class and constantly ask good questions. That way the teachers can write good recs, and you will have two from different subject areas (which is asked for by lots of top colleges). </p>
<p>Realistically, your rec will almost never get you in and almost never keep you out of a college (unless it highlights cheating). You cannot obsess about how strong your rec is, because you are the one picking the teacher and you are the one who had oppertunities to work hard in the class and prove you should get a good rec. The fact that many colleges say they do not want an supplemental rec, or that they encourage not sending one unless it adds to the app, is because most recs do not add much and it is better for adcoms to focus on your essays which you wrote instead of what your teacher wrote.</p>
<p>This is an interesting discussion, but I think we need to remember that if all of a student's teachers refuse to write a recommendation, the student can't apply to any college that requires recommendations.</p>
<p>A bad recommendation may therefore be better than none.</p>
<p>My son had trouble finding a teacher to write a recommendation for him. When he eliminated from consideration 1) teachers who had taught him for only one semester, 2) teachers who had moved away or retired, and 3) teachers whom he had personally antagonized (he has a big mouth), he was left with only one option -- a teacher in whose class he had earned a mediocre grade. The recommendation this teacher wrote for him was probably not stellar. Nevertheless, he was admitted to his first-choice college -- a flagship state university. The probably-poor recommendation was apparently outweighed by other factors. But if he had not had that recommendation, he would have been rejected outright; the college requires one teacher recommendation as a mandatory part of the application package.</p>
<p>"The recommendation this teacher wrote for him was probably not stellar. Nevertheless, he was admitted to his first-choice college -- a flagship state university."</p>
<p>Most public universities admit students overwhelmingly on the basis of stats. Recommendations count for very little except to ensure the completeness fo the application.</p>
<p>It's the most select colleges that weigh recommendations more strongly. One can tell how important recommendations are by checking the school's common data set (many of which are pinned to the top of one of the CC boards) or by paying $15 to fully access US News online site about colleges.</p>
<p>Also, even if a teacher moves or retires, students may be able to get the teacher to write a recommendation -- if the student can contact the teacher and if the teacher is amenable. I've done that for students years after leaving a university.</p>
<p>
[quote]
kind of off topic, but, how can you go about asking a teacher if they've done the rec yet?
[/quote]
There are some indirect means you can use. Some colleges have websites that allow you to check the status of your application, so you can see what has arrived and what is pending. For those that don't, I've heard of students giving the teacher the addressed envelope and also adding a self-addressed postcard that simply says "Rec from Mr./Ms. X recieved". When the college gets the rec they drop the postcard in the mail and you know it got there.</p>
<p>It can be good to check to find out if their recc has been registered by the college, but often there's a lag time between when the recc is submitted and when it's logged. Consequently, if the recc doesnt' show up on the college's site, don't conclude that the teacher hasn't submitted it yet.</p>
<p>After the recc is submitted, it's appropriate to give the teacher a handwritten thank-you note. Don't wait until you find out if you're accepted. Regardless of whether you're accepted, the teacher still did a favor for you. After you are accepted, let the teacher know, too.</p>
<p>After reading this thread I have to agree with Weenie. Nobody is suggesting that the teacher lie. They are simply saying that if they can not recommend you honestly then they should decline writing the letter. I would expect the same thing of an old employer who agrees to be a reference. It is dishonest to say you will speak on behalf of someone and then speak against them. Now it would be different if the teacher agreed to evaluate the student as that implies weighing both the good and the bad.</p>
<p>i agree with the advice to juniors. suck up. a lot.
when i asked my teachers for my recs, they burst into grins and were like 'OF COURRRSEEEEE im so happy you asked!' </p>
<p>annnnd of COURSE i sucked up like it was my job and got great grades in their classes.</p>
<p>but teachers at my school are known for being brutally honest. and no one needs that, seriously. consider it. are you always perfect?</p>
<p>Teachers are supposed to be honest with their recommendations. If they gave out glowing recommendations willy nilly, their recommendations would be worthless.</p>
<p>One doesn't need across the board perfect recommendations to get into colleges, including top colleges. Indeed, I've heard that admissions committees can look askance at recommendations that describe students as too perfect. Everyone has flaws and things that could use improvement.</p>
<p>My councellor JUST wrote a really negative reference for me. Sigh, really don't know how to fix it...</p>
<p>"Teachers are supposed to be honest with their recommendations."</p>
<p>Who is suggesting they should lie?</p>
<p>I guess the question evolves into how much candor is really necessary, especially when too much would hurt the student applicant? Yes, most students aren't perfect & most schools & teachers recognize this. </p>
<p>Still, most of us view the recommendation as a place to advocate on behalf of the student rather than catalog his/her shortcomings. If the recommender has qualms about writing a rec, of course to me best policy would be for him/her to indicate this to the student before proceeding.</p>
<p>Obviously, this does not always happen.</p>
<p>My AP English teacher wrote a nasty one for one of the girls in her reuglar English class. The girl always had a snotty attitude and showed up to class late pretty much every day...so yeah...that's pretty much what the letter she wrote for her said.</p>
<p>I recently attended a professional meeting with the Associate Dean of Admissions at an Ivy League university. The Dean said a number of things about rec letters, but three points really struck me:</p>
<p>1) With the rise of grade inflation and the use of private college counselors who tinker with student essays, recs are becoming an increaingly important part of the application.</p>
<p>2) It's a waste of time for teachers to metion a student's ECs, unless the teacher witnessed or supervised the activities. As a result, giving a resume to a teacher may do more harm than good. </p>
<p>3) Teachers should avoiding saying anything negative in a rec. This doesn't mean that all recs should be glowing. Of course not. Teachers need to be careful in their phrasing, offering an honest assessment of a student's performance and ability while avoiding comments that are directly negative. Such comments are just too tempting for adcoms looking for any reason to thin their piles</p>
<p>I have a rec from a teacher, that says good things, but it is really short and doesn't mention specifics. It says things like "He was by far the best student in the class" but with no notable anecdotes. What do you guys think?</p>
<p>Drummerdude, that is the kind of rec that doesn't hurt, but doesn't particularly help. If you can ask some other teachers for recs, it might be a good idea. It's probably fine for your safety schools -- but it might not be what you need to grab the attention of the ad com at an elite or reach school. </p>
<p>My d. had a teacher offer to write a rec, but it was kind of weak -- so she used his letter for colleges that accepted supplemental or extra recs, but she asked 2 other teachers for the recs that were the "main" ones submitted at most colleges. The teacher who wrote the short, general rec had his heart in the right place but he was a fairly new teacher who just didn't know what was needed for the top colleges.</p>
<p>I've seen two presentations with actual recs (names blacked out) from both Northwestern and Vanderbilt. It isn't that teachers say something negative--it's just they don't grasp how important it is to day something positive.</p>
<p>Just checking off boxes doesn't help the candidate. Try a few paragraphs teachers to give some additional insight!!</p>
<p>Ask your teacher if they can give you a great recommendation. If they can't, find another. Some teachers are awful..</p>
<p>Okay, I'm panicking a bit...I feel stupid...I asked my teacher if she would write me a recommendation (not, will you write me a strong rec), and she said that she'd be glad to (w/o mentioning whether it would a strong one or not), and then I signed the waiver, which I regret now. She already wrote the rec, and I really want to know what's on it; is there a polite way of asking her whether it was a strong rec or not?</p>