<p>I also had a lot of admiration for St. John and his two sisters. And I loved Jane-her independence and spunk!</p>
<p>I’m not a St. John fan. I compare his religiosity to that of Helen Burns, and he falls short of the ideal. Dictionary.com defines religiosity as:</p>
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</p>
<p>Helen Burns exemplifies the first and St. John the second.</p>
<p>In her preface to the second edition of JE Charlotte Bronte responds to critics:</p>
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</p>
<p>I see St. John in Bronte’s remarks.</p>
<p>^ Substitute “Mr. Brocklehurst” for “St. John” and then I would agree. Brocklehurst–an affected, self-righteous, holier-than-thou hypocrite–is the true Pharisee.</p>
<p>
I found these words just SO profound in the context of our current political/cultural/social debates. I hope some of our discussion will be along the lines of just how ahead of her time Bronte seems to be in her thinking.</p>
<p>Maybe Bronte is showing the reader different levels of religiosity. </p>
<ul>
<li><p>Helen is the model of saintliness. Her goodness seems to be innate; it flows from her, and she loves indiscriminately and forgives easily. She bears no ill-will toward the unfair and unpleasant Miss Scatcherd, telling Jane, “Life appears to me too short to be spent in nursing animosity or registering wrongs” (p. 39).</p></li>
<li><p>St. John is a level beneath her. Saintliness does not come naturally to him. His good works come from his head rather than his heart, and following the path of righteousness is a duty, but not a joy. Still, his self-sacrifice is admirable in its way, as he tends to his flock day and night without complaint:</p></li>
</ul>
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</p>
<p>Unlike Helen, St. John has trouble letting go of a “wrong”:</p>
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<p>I think that one of the greatest compliments to St. John is that Jane, Diana, Mary, Hannah and Rosamond all love him very much—and the first three at least are well aware of his flaws.</p>
<ul>
<li>Mr. Brocklehurst is the basest level. He is a clergyman who declares a devotion to Christian duty, but he does little good and sees only evil in Jane, who he feels is destined for “the lake burning with fire and brimstone” (p. 21). He deprives the children at Lowood, while he and his family live in plenty. He is “a harsh man; at once pompous and meddling” (p. 85).</li>
</ul>
<p>Where does Jane herself fall? Somewhere between Helen and St. John, I think. She realizes without hesitation that “I was no Helen Burns” (p. 44), but her tolerance for others and her capacity for love are both greater than St. John’s, despite his all-consuming efforts to achieve Christian perfection.</p>
<p>Mary13 excellent post . I wondered what statement Bronte was trying to make about religion thoughout the book. Excellent summary.</p>
<p>Loved “Jane Eyre”- smitten with Rochester- detested, St John - the bully.
And , disgusted with Rhys’s reworking of Rochester. I hope I can forget the dark stain now on this “romantic character”.</p>
<p>Mary: I agree with your description of Brocklehurst: “affected, self-righteous, holier-than-thou hypocrite.” I’m not a St. John fan but neither do I think he’s evil. Still, I don’t like how he uses prayer as weapon against Jane the night before he leaves. </p>
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<p>I feel Bronte makes a point when she contrasts St. John’s prayer (“He was in deep earnest, wrestling with God, and resolved on a conquest.”) with Jane’s: “I sincerely, deeply, fervently longed to do what was right; and only that. ‘Shew me, shew me the path!’ I entreated of Heaven.” </p>
<p>I agree that those surrounding St. John love him. He does good often. I just wonder how many see the side of himself he shows to Jane, when he wants what he wants and doesn’t get it.</p>
<p>I do agree with Mary that he’s light-years removed from Brocklehurst.</p>
<p>sewhappy: I take the opposite viewpoint. St. John wants Jane because she is no temptation. Jane does not have the stamina to survive India. Surely he recognizes this but just doesn’t care.</p>
<p>NJTM: I don’t like Rochester much. I didn’t in high school either. I thought I might this time around (with my older, more-mature viewpoint ;)) but I don’t. </p>
<p>Truthfully, I’m not a fan of any of the men in JE … at least the men we get to know. On the other hand, I like many, many of the female characters. </p>
<p>(Allow me to play matchmaker: St. John and Eliza … the two could find enough common ground to have a thoroughly joyless marriage … and accomplish much good.)</p>
<p>Although personally I wouldn’t want Rochester as a life-mate, I understand why Jane loves him. Also, I appreciate the fact that is he multi-faceted. A character like Mr. Darcy in Pride and Prejudice is easy to love because he doesn’t say much and the reader can imbue him with whatever thoughts and attributes they desire. Mr. Rochester, on the other hand, says plenty (what fun Bronte must have had creating this character!) and it’s easy to be alternately irked, amused, appalled or surprised by something he has said or done. He is an interesting man.</p>
<p>What I liked most about him was his sense of humor—sometimes whimsical, sometimes sarcastic. There aren’t too many witty characters in the book and his sparring with Jane is fun to observe. We said above that he is a bully, and to a certain extent that’s true, but his attempts to bully Jane usually end in repartee, where she has the upper hand. </p>
<p>The dialogue about Jane’s wages, for example, was a funny one, where he gives her ten pounds and then tries to get nine back. I also liked their rapid back-and-forth when he is disguised as the gypsy. </p>
<p>(^ This Rochester of JE doesn’t bear a shred of resemblance to the Rochester of WSS, whom I found to be completely humorless.)</p>
<p>I understand why Jane loves Rochester, but I still don’t like him. The business of his teasing her by making her think he would marry Blanche Ingram was childish and cruel. It was also inconsiderate of Blanche. It seemed to me like middle school, lol!</p>
<p>His dressing in drag as a gypsy fortune teller was ridiculous! I don’t think any of the films include that, for good reason. The 2006 BBC miniseries had a real gypsy, with Rochester hiding behind a curtain and then popping out to talk with Jane.</p>
<p>One reason I watched three film versions of Jane Eyre was that I was trying to find one in which Rochester did not seem ridiculous to me at some point in the film. I wanted to like him better, and to revive a little of the romantic feeling the book gave me while I was young!</p>
<p>The film that I saw with Samantha Morton and Ciar</p>
<p>I am enjoying everyone’s posts!</p>
<p>I was very familiar with JE so I read * WSS * first and was freaked out by <em>that</em> Mr. Rochester. As soon as I “re-met” him in *JE<a href=“the%20scene%20with%20the%20horse%20and%20sprained%20ankle”>/i</a>, I immediately liked him again! I appreciate his conversational banter and his ability to self-reflect. As Mary says, he is an interesting character…and I have decided to go with my JE assessment of him. But it is not a completely closed deal. Seeing him refer to his first wife as “that maniac” is giving me some pause, for starters. Oh I am confused!</p>
<p>Thank you for pairing these books…and for the stellar analysis.</p>
<p>Re the “that maniac” comment noted by psychmom…yeah, after reading WSS and feeling so heartbroken for Antoinette, some of the stuff in Jane Eyre made me squirm. </p>
<p>As was asked upthread in post #80, why did Bertha have a discolored face in Bront</p>
<p>NJYM - I think that Rochester was considering marrying Blanche and might have if Jane hadn’t said the following on page 172:
This was said at the end of their conversation after Jane’s return from Gateshead. Once she says this, he knows she loves him. It’s after this that he calls off his marriage to Blanche. I’ll agree his approach was childish and kind of mean to Jane, but he needed Jane to profess her love to him. Rochester felt unworthy of love and found it hard to believe that Jane could love him with all his flaws. I think he would have married Blanche if he hadn’t met Jane and lived in the loveless marriage that he thought he deserved.</p>
<p>
I’m wondering if this terminology is reflective of the time in which Jane Eryre is written. If this was a more contemporary novel, the words used may be different and less harsh.</p>
<p>
[quote=NJTM]
As was asked upthread in post #80, why did Bertha have a discolored face in Bront</p>
<p>I don’t think Rochester was truly intending to marry Blanche, because he didn’t love her. In addition, he knew there was a considerable element of risk in marrying anyone because of the bigamy issue.</p>
<p>Rochester had spent years traveling around and having affairs like the one with Adele’s mother. He probably would have continued that behavior if he hadn’t met Jane. I think there is text to support this, but I can’t put my finger on it.</p>
<p>Would it have been harder to conceal the existence of Bertha from a Blanche wife than a Jane wife? Or would Rochester have told either woman the truth about Bertha once the wedding had occurred?</p>
<p>Would Rochester have dared ask Blanche to be his mistress if a wedding to her had been aborted, as his wedding to Jane was?</p>
<p>Re ethnicity…even if Bertha/Antoinette’s mother was French (I think this is said in WSS but not in Jane Eyre?), this would almost certainly not have resulted in Antoinette being a dark-skinned, exotic character the way some of the films portray her.</p>
<p>It is an interesting question why Rhys had Antoinette’s mom come from Martinique instead of Jamaica.</p>
<p>Further thoughts on whether Rochester would have married Blanche:</p>
<p>In a way, Bront</p>
<p>^^^ Interesting point. </p>
<p>Re Mr. Rochester and Blanche: I find my thoughts superfluous as NJTM expresses them better than I can. (And this applies to why NJTM dislikes Mr. R. also)</p>
<p>However, I do want to add that Mr. Rochester himself indicates that he has no serious intentions toward Blanche.</p>
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</p>
<p>Anyway, to marry Miss Ingram would have increased Rochester’s chances of exposure exponentially.</p>
<p>I think it would be interesting for an author to come along and create an empathic story about Blanche!</p>
<p>^ psychmom, I think that is a fascinating idea. Blanche no doubt had demons of her own. The mother was quite a piece of work, as I recall.</p>
<p>Hats off to the brilliant discussion waging here. I’m reading the posts and savoring everyone of them.</p>
<p>Have you by any chance read Middlemarch, psychmom? There is a fantastic character in it, coincidentally named Rosamond, who is rather like an empathic version of Blanche.</p>
<p>George Eliot’s Rosamond is a monster in some ways, but you come to understand her and even to respect her, after a fashion.</p>
<p>Middlemarch also features the wonderful Dorothea Brooke. The lovely character of Miss Temple at Lowood in Jane Eyre reminded me of Dorothea in Middlemarch.</p>
<p>It took me years and years to get around to reading Middlemarch. I can’t recommend it highly enough. Its characters become people you KNOW, to an extent that exceeds almost any other book.</p>
<p>NJTheatreMom,</p>
<p>Middlemarch is the book I read every year without fail. Each time I find more in it. George Elliot is just amazing. </p>
<p>Rosamond is such an interesting character because she never quite behaves like the 2-dimensional vain bad girl we expect her to be. That scene near the end where she confesses to Dorothea that the young man she loves (Will Ladislaw) but has given up in fact loves her back is shockingly emotional. I will never forget the first time I came across that scene and just literally found myself shaking with the emotion and the shock of it. The most unlikeable character in the book pretty much saves the day for the star-crossed lovers. It is so unexpected yet so believable – and I always feel my heart swell with joy when I read it.</p>
<p>Jane Eyre is also wonderful, of course. It really does seem gothic. though whereas George Elliot, even the rather dark Silas Marner, are not. </p>
<p>It’s so interesting you’re bringing up George Elliot in this discussion. My sense is that Elliot was a very serious scholar of Christian theology and turned away from it. Bronte clearly sees the problems with Christianity but seems steadfast in her faith.</p>
<p>Been hesitant to comment on this thread, as I have not done the reading recently enough (JE reread about a year ago, WWS read once many years ago.) However, you touched on my favorite book (Middlemarch) which I believe I share with Sewhappy.</p>
<p>rosamund/Blanche, intersesting! I think Eliot does a beautiful job with a character like Rosamund. I don’t recall Blanche as being as multifaceted, but I need to read the book more recently.</p>
<p>I always did like Mr. R, though reading again, the subterfuge as the gypsy did give me pause. I think that Rhys wrote an interesting book about different characters from a different story, though she used the same names.</p>
<p>[cross-posted with sewhappy–not surprised! 
)</p>