Will she go to a name brand school?

There seem to be some broad categories of jobs where a bachelor’s degree tends to be expected:

A. Jobs where a specific major or course work is required or highly desired. Examples include many engineering jobs (and sometimes even sales and marketing associated with engineering) that you are apparently most familiar with. Other examples include accounting, nursing, and quantitative finance (for math and statistics majors). Not all such jobs are plentiful or pay well; consider biology/chemistry lab technician, interior designer, artists/musicians other than the few who make it big, etc… Some graduates in these majors seek jobs not associated with their majors. Also, economic and industry cycles can make even the more-in-demand jobs hard to find if one graduates during a downturn.

B. Jobs where graduation from an elite school, regardless of major, is highly desired. Typical examples include management consulting and investment banking. These employers believe that the elite schools already did most of their screening for them; the consulting companies are also selling the prestige of the consultants’ alma maters to the customers who pay for the services. Of course, it means that one’s high school achievements (admission to an elite school; they also ask for things like SAT scores) matter a lot.

C. Jobs where neither a specific major nor an elite school is required or highly desired. There are lots of these jobs, but there are lots of applicants, so the entry level pay levels are not generally at the top end. Note that some with majors in group A above may seek jobs here if the jobs associated with their majors are hard to find. Career advancement to jobs with higher pay levels tends to be most dependent on on-the-job performance.

Remember also that jobs are not necessarily in the “corporate world”, since some people (of various majors) go into self-employment or start small businesses.

What is “financially sound” for her does depend on her spending habits. If she is frugal, then she will likely be able to live comfortably on the pay level of entry level jobs in category C. But if she is spendy, then she may struggle financially even with one of the better paid jobs in category A.

Realistically, she has little chance of getting into an elite school that is recruited by employers of category B jobs. So it looks like you want her to choose a major associated with an in-demand job in category A, while her current preferred major of biology is likely to lead to a low-demand job in category A or a job in category C. Correct?

Perhaps the question should be, is she well aware of the job markets and career directions associated with various majors, and is she aware of her spending habits, so that she can make an informed decision on such matters? If not, can you help her make a more informed decision, rather than deciding for her? Forcing her to major in something she is not interested in is unlikely to lead to a good outcome, since her lack of interest may not result in good academic performance or good job performance if she takes a job in that area.

I disagree that gov’t is the cause for the high price of college. Boarding school in the US costs the same as a private college, and boarding schools get no gov’t grants or student loans.

Whether one agrees with it or not there was a recent study attributing the rise in tuition to gov loans and grants - discussed in a different cc thread.
http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1791313-federal-reserve-bank-of-ny-report-finding-expanded-fed-student-aid-driving-up-tuition-costs-p1.html

@wppdf2, I’m not a big fan of Payscale reports, but here’s their latest summary on jobs and earnings from undergraduate science degrees (including biology):

http://www.payscale.com/college-salary-report/common-jobs-for-majors/physical-and-life-sciences

Statistics and studies aside, my overall point is that human beings perform best and achieve the most when they are pursuing goals of interest to them. Somebody who hates studying economics, accounting and finance is going to be a poor and unsuccessful business student. Somebody who hates physics and math will be a poor and unsuccessful engineering student. Somebody who hates to read or speak in public will be a poor journalism major. If you can’t tolerate needles, better not study nursing…and on and on. You get the point.

The world needs - and rewards - artists, plumbers, communicators, engineers, doctors, etc. These can all be lucrative paths for people who choose them for the right reasons.

Your D has had an unremarkable academic performance to date. College will be harder. She’d better be studying something she likes or she won’t get the grades to be attractive to many employers, regardless of her major. And then even that $25k-$30k/year investment won’t have the ROI you are hoping for.

There is not a single industry you can name that does not value people of personality and creativity. Think about the most successful people you know. What sets them apart from everyone else in the same field? You don’t develop that sort of creativity and critical thinking ability by studying something you dislike, or that bores you to tears.

UCB is right, of course, some careers require a particular path (engineering requires a degree from an ABET-accredited program; lawyers need a law degree, actuaries must pass a bunch of exams, etc.). You need to follow D’s lead on choosing a major; that said, I do agree that many 18 year olds really have no clue about what really interests them, and you should feel free to guide her accordingly, especially if you don’t think she is aware of all of the options, being a young and inexperienced teenager. All the more reason to seek out a college that can facilitate a change in major; many publics make this hard to do. The more expensive privates are generally more accomodating when the student realizes a year down the road that they really want to do something else (very common).

@wppdf2, I also recommend that you investigate the career center of the colleges your D is considering. Who recruits there? What kinds of students are getting recruited there? Is there an active and well-connected alumni group? At the top LACs and elite universities, this type of investigation isn’t as necessary since these schools generally have a long list of interested companies looking to hire…sometimes even with little regard for major. Dropping down a tier or two, however, I think it would be wise to look into this sort of thing.

Undergrads can generally only borrow a max of $31k

@wppdf2 I wouldn’t necessarily believe that because you didn’t receive a higher level of criticism for your recent posts, that people necessarily believe or support your beliefs or opinions. It may be the result of disbelief or the result of others exercising self restraint and good manners. Right there with you@romanigypsyeyes.

^“I wouldn’t necessarily believe that because you didn’t receive a higher level of criticism for your recent posts, that people necessarily believe or support your beliefs or opinions.”

Yep, exactly. I think many of us are realizing that this post is all about the poster, and not about D at all. I don’t have any further interest in being entertainment for OP, some I’m out.

@wppdf2 “That said, I want to address what she may be missing when attending $25k state colleges. It is small class sizes and possibly professors who inspire you and give a hoot. Now I am not willing to pay $140k for this BUT I am willing to look around to see what is available to more closely get to this situation.”

In state, TCNJ or Rowan.

Out of state, invest $12 in Loren Pope’s Colleges that Change Lives. The ROI is high

Rutgers Honors Program for a more personalized experience. “The only specific requirement for consideration for Direct Admission is a minimum SAT Critical Reading score of at least 600 or ACT composite score of 30. No separate application for Direct Admission to the School of Arts and Sciences Honors Program is required.” I don’t remember if her CR score makes the cutoff but I recollect she was in the ballpark. This is for the A&S honors program, not sure about Engineering.

@BobWallace …the government is indeed a big contributor to high college costs…at so many levels. There is never an urgency or need to cut costs at public schools. It’s always the opposite. …where can more money be spent? I visited my oldest at Rutgers last night to get coffee with her. I noticed that they just put in turf fields on Bush for what looks like intramural sports. One question…why? Being involved with our local high school I know how much these fields cost. .this is just one of so many examples… where do we think this money comes from?

So I guess your other child does attend Rutgers? Or just close by?

post #228 -That said, I want to address what she may be missing when attending $25k state colleges. It is small class sizes and possibly professors who inspire you and give a hoot-"

This is total hogwash. TCNJ average class size of 21 and lots of hoots.

My other child does attend Rutgers. Although she does and has a great job offer, I don’t think the experience was very good. In her senior year she still has massively size classes. She occasionally goes to professor’s office hours with mixed results. One time she had to wait a week to see her professor. When she finally went to her appointment the professor told her that she didn’t have time to speak because she was preparing for her next class. What? This is one example of so many I can quote you.

It’s true that TCNJ class sizes are small. I guess I am really stuck on the Rutgers experience. I think TCNJ is probably a good school for my youngest but I’ve heard that many students get bored on campus. There isn’t much to do close by. Wait maybe that’s exactly what I want for her. :slight_smile:

That’s why people recommended LACs for you, for the personal attention and possibility of smaller class size.

From your experience with your older D and considering the interests and personality of D2, I agree Rutgers might not be the right environment for her.

So it comes down to these options:

  1. instate publics like TCNJ, Rowan or Stockton

  2. OOS small catholic colleges, LAC or publics where she would get merit to bring price down to instate options

like UDayton, St Vincent College, Juniata, Allegheny, Miami of Ohio, …

So now apply to several of these and once accepted check out the programs and such and find best fit for D.

Then pick the one she likes best from the ones that come in the price range you want.

Yes, your D has perfectly good stats for a bio degree. And without loans I think she should be able to live well even with a starting salary of $30k. Especially if you get her a car.

I agree I would not insist on engineering if no interest. I assume older D had a higher math score and excellent grades in chemistry and physics?

Pretty sure Juniata wouldn’t be a fit for what the OP is looking for.

Although, I think it’s more important that the school be a fit for his daughter than for him. He may be paying for it, but she’s the one who will have to live and study there for four years. Ideally, while not being miserable the whole time.

Just curious if the OP has considered there are some things without an “ROI” still worth paying for, such as his daughter’s happiness / satisfaction with the college she chooses.

Good point, but I would add that I’d still call that a type of ROI! :slight_smile:

@guidedbywire I don’t know how to reply and I don’t know why you can’t understand me. Colleges, at least sticker prices, are so high now that their cost materially affects parents lives. It didn’t use to be that way. Let me ask you a question - how high is too high for college cost (and to make your child happy)? Certainly there is a number in your mind. Is $70k, $80k, $100k, 125k too high? I am telling you that spending this much money on college is not a smart thing to do. My daughter’s happiness might be improved with a new 3 series but that doesn’t mean I should buy her one over the older Accord that she drives. If you are wealthy, I don’t think I should tell you how to spend your money.

In a previous post I talked about how the ratio of annual college cost to starting salaries of a particular major have changed over the years. I am not sure if you had seen this. This is not sustainable and the figure of merit we should look at is ROI. To repeat - in mid 1980s - college cost all in around $5500/starting salary $33k. Today - college cost around $26k/starting salary about $65k. That is a 5x increase in cost and a 2x increase in starting salary. If this keeps up linearly, in another 30 years it will be a 25x (~$137k) increase in cost and a 4x (~$132k) increase in starting salary - again this is not sustainable.

It isn’t the happiness of my daughter we have to talk about - besides she won’t be happy if her or I are in debt beyond what we can pay.

You keep flip flopping on whether you could write the check easily if you wanted to, or whether you would have to go into debt. This thread is all over the place…

You can’t change the reality of the tuition prices. And most people can’t afford that much. Guess what, we can’t even afford what you are willing to pay. So it doesn’t do any good to complain about it.

But you look for options and make compromises. There are lots of colleges out there for lots of different majors and lots of different students. If you want your D to go to college you have to find one that has the best fit for D at the price you want.

You can’t get everything. Small classes, personal attention, right price, name recognition, rural, but with lots of stuff to do on weekends. But you can find a school that has most of these. Who cares if your friends, relatives or coworkers have never heard of the school?

We are saying that we want your D to follow her interests and get the career she wants, to go to a school that fits her, not that you need to pay top dollar for it.