<p>Just today I had a very remorseful student (he threw up while telling me) who was in the “wrong place at the wrong time”. His concern was about what happens later. If the ticket does stand (underaged drinking-zero tolerance). Will it haunt him the rest of his life? </p>
<p>Are records truly expunged after a few years? He was considering a military career and now feels that this ticket may be the end of him. I feel for this kid. Opinions?</p>
<p>Let me make a point that I think underlies this discussion. The Common App does not ask a simple factual question. It asks a legal question. A factual question might be “What year were you born?” The question we’re talking about is more like, “Are you married?” That is not exactly a factual question, because whether somebody is “married” or not is a legal issue. Similarly, in this case, the question uses these terms such as “found responsible.” What does that mean? Just because somebody on an internet discussion board thinks it’s clear what it means doesn’t mean that it is. If a high school has a policy of expunging disciplinary violations, and instructing students that this means they aren’t now considered to have been “found responsible,” it’s not clear to me whether the Common App addresses the situation at all. Perhaps somebody concerned about this could ask the guidance counselor to call the people at Common App and ask them. I’ll bet you the GC doesn’t get a clear answer.</p>
<p>"The panel acknowledged confusion surrounding what disciplinary information should be disclosed, noting that often students failed to mention offenses that had been expunged from their records but reported in the news or mentioned anonymously to the admissions office.</p>
<p>The admissions directors encouraged applicants to err on the side of over disclosure. “Tell us everything, and let us decide,” Mr. Verzyl said. “Nothing puts admission in jeopardy more than lying. You’re much better off disclosing something and having us say ‘no big deal’ than to find out and wonder what else you are hiding.”"</p>
<p>I don’t see any legal question here at all (except I’m sure the lawyers could use to make a couple of bucks. What is telling is that they see not disclosing as lying.)</p>
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Well, it’s pretty clear that you don’t see it. But tell me this–do you think a kid would have to report a suspension if the school expunged it because they discovered that he didn’t actually do the thing he was suspended for? Or would you interpret the Common App’s simple question to exclude that?</p>
<p>my daughter actions did have consequenses- had to drop out of play, miss retreat, not do ecs at school for a month, which means no meetings, no sports events, no dances, etc…every afternoon in dentention sitting and pondering her actions, preparing a talk for freshman, meeting with a group to talk about drugs and alcohol, meeting with dean of students every week, do a reserach paper re addiction, annd after the month of various consequences, she still followed thru with even more work with dean of students, all on her own</p>
<p>her attitude, her remorse, her follow thru, her subsequent behavior, the respect she earned from her gc, the dean, her teachers, and all the rest were enough for the school to go, yes, we don’t need to continue the consequences</p>
<p>and you know what, good for them</p>
<p>i am all about redemption, guess many others want perfection and no mistakes, ever</p>
<p>happy for you</p>
<p>ps i think ex cons should be able to vote and drug offenses should be dealt with in the criminal justiice system, unless they are dealing, call me crazy</p>
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<p>This is very controversial, not because policies differ among schools (I would expect they would) but because there can be an awful lot of winking and hypocrisy about this. It creates cynicism in students, and also opportunities to exploit, when Reporting policies are not enforced.</p>
<p>There need to be categories of offenses. (I.m.o., cheating is far worse than drunkenness which was not accompanied by driving and which does not result in other offenses or danger to others) I am of the opinion that stated consequences, including reporting to colleges, should be enforced, as long as they have been abundantly communicated to families ahead of time. I think cheating conspiracies should absolutely be reported, at whatever age in high school they occurred. My opinion is not always the majority opinion, though. </p>
<p>Many high schools have policies that allow for “redemption” and repair within a certain time frame. This also should be employed, i.m.o. Thus, the student’s acknowledgement & regret for having done something foolish like getting drunk should accompany whatever else is in that file, and opportunities to make good on that repair, such as hosting alcohol awareness events, etc. </p>
<p>If the school has a policy that any and all offenses will be Reported to colleges, then they should follow through, but note that most do not have such a comprehensive policy. And some schools have graduated levels of offenses (sequenced): first offense, not reported (etc.)</p>
<p>Nevertheless, regarding “not standing in the way of a young person’s chances,” there is no point in having a policy (regarding Reporting) that is not enforced. That is why abundant communication is so critical beforehand. (You do such-and-such, we tell the college; you do only this, you get a warning but no Report.) If a student has been told the college will hear, then the student is lying in a bed that he or she made.</p>
<p>follow-up to Seahorsesrock…</p>
<p>full disclosure myself here: I actually only read the beginning of this thread before I posted on it. My reply was to one much earlier post. But I’d like to clarify: I am not for “perfection.” I am for consistency and full disclosure all the way around IF the school policy is that a particular infraction is Reportable to the colleges. So again, contrite statement of student gets put in file and addended (or quoted) in any “negative” report by the school to the colleges, if that was indeed a Reportable offense. And reparative acts of student also get included (by the school) in that explanation.</p>
<p>Interesting presentation from a NACAC (National association for college admission counseling) conference on this subject <a href=“http://www.nacacnet.org/events/2012/session-archives/Documents/2010%20Documents/D400.pdf[/url]”>http://www.nacacnet.org/events/2012/session-archives/Documents/2010%20Documents/D400.pdf</a></p>
<p>I probably am one of the harsher people here, though I only posted once, and as I reflect on why I worry about someone else’s child, two things come to mind. First long ago I worked in alcohol rehab. I don’t think underage/high school drinking is a given or a right of passage; for better or worse, I view it as a potential symptom. Second at my children’s private school, students are expelled for drinking on the grounds and that shows up on records. This year a freshman girl was expelled for drinking at a football game. . .</p>
<p>So I guess I worry about the acceptance of drinking and the unequal playing fields among underage drinkers.</p>
<p>I view raising my kids to be responsible adults as my responsibility. If my kids had alcohol/drug problems, the last thing I would worry about is their college application or if there would be equal playing fields.</p>
<p>Character is what you do when no one is looking.</p>
<p>You can rationalize, quibble, lawyer-ize, semantic-ize, etc. all you want. It’s all BS. You know exactly what the question is asking about. It’s only open to interpretation if you’re trying to hide something. Like it or not, mistakes don’t go away. Even if they’re forgiven, forgotten, expunged, swept under the rug, debt paid, or whatever other euphemism you want to trot out to mollify yourself the mistake still exists. Own it, own up to it, and be HONEST about it when someone asks…whenever they ask. Tell the truth and let the chips fall where they may. </p>
<p>NOBODY expects or claims perfection but EVERYONE should expect and demand honesty and character, and that’s precisely what this question shows. Lying about it, pretending it never happened, or deciding on your own that it’s not an issue or has been “punished enough” is pure garbage. Parents decide what values they want to instill in their children, and it’s obvious that there will always be parents whose overriding value is “the ends justify the means”.</p>
<p>These two high school students, the OP and SeahorseRock, are being made an example of bad behavior by a high school student that should never be tolerated under any circumstances and they must pay for one mistake for the rest of their lives. Better yet, they aren’t even worthy to be in the company of all of the perfect kids (or at least the ones that didn’t get caught.) Is this what is being said? </p>
<p>These two students sure are going to be appalled at college. Some college kids are so dumb about exploiting their own bad behavior that they post on Facebook all of their partying and underaged drinking. They even tweet about it. These are good kids at very good colleges. Where are their punishments? Talk about needing to hold kids to an accountable standard. These kids are practically making a mockery of the system and flaunting their own behavior and not one thing is being done about it.</p>
<p>The system is NOT perfect. College ad coms are going to tell you that they want to know everything because they do not want to be liable for admitting students that the college deems to be a threat to the student population. They are obviously not looking for perfect students. If they were then they sure can’t do their jobs because they fill their college full of a bunch imperfect students year after year.</p>
<p>My D’s are not perfect. They were raised by imperfect parents. When bad things happen, and they do, there are consequences. Where there is remorse and the facing of consequences there is restitution and forgiveness. No one said that this did not happen. It was dealt with and the students faced consequences.The school is not reporting the behavior to the colleges. If you don’t like this policy and want to make it a vigilante system, make sure you don’t ever drive 21 mph in a school zone.</p>
<p>
So maybe you’d like to answer my question–if your kid were suspended, and the suspension was later rescinded because it was discovered he didn’t commit the violation, would you tell him to reveal this in response to the Common App question?</p>
<p>I’m just trying to point out that things that may seem simple actually aren’t.</p>
<p>This thread is cracking me up. All worried over whether or not our higher education system will be compromised by the dishonestly of some teenager who is told by a school that their record has been expunged. </p>
<p>In the meantime, this guy is getting his PhD at the University of Chicago, which used to actually be one of the few institutions which had integrity. </p>
<p>[From</a> ‘Fabulous Fab’ to Grad Student - WSJ.com](<a href=“From 'Fabulous Fab' to Grad Student - WSJ”>From 'Fabulous Fab' to Grad Student - WSJ)</p>
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<p>Hunt…I would ABSOLUTELY have them reveal it, because the question straight up asks for it. It also then states:</p>
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<p>Why would anyone fear answering the question HONESTLY (yes, I/my kid was suspended) and providing a truthful explanation of the events? Do you really think an Adcom looks at the answer to the question without looking at the explanation and just throws the application in the Reject pile? The question is already designed to allow people to make mistakes (which EVERYONE does) while understanding and accounting for the individual circumstances. If the student didn’t actually commit the offense, do you really think the college would hold them accountable, especially if the school backs up that fact?</p>
<p>Maybe you’d like to answer my question…what value is taught to a child when you encourage them to knowingly lie to a straightforward question?</p>
<p>My parents used to fight. A lot. In every fight, they drug up past fights. It was never about the moment, but rehashing of old stuff. </p>
<p>In life, people screw up. They make mistakes. They sometimes get caught, and they sometimes don’t. How many kids did much worse than my kid and the ops kid, and didn’t get caught, so they don’t have a “record”. Those kids are not better than mine. They don’t deserve more than mine. They just got away with it.</p>
<p>It’s not garbage to want to move on after dealing with an issue. It’s not a character flaw to not continually wanting to share past transgressions to ones own detriment if one has done the time for being stupid. </p>
<p>Some here talk about honesty. I don’t think colleges are being honest in how they say they will deal with the reports. The system isnt fair. Its not like every school handles every thing the exact same way, with the same reporting, the same punishments, the same standards.</p>
<p>There is nothing wrong with protecting oneself. If the school says it didn’t happen, it didn’t happen. There’s this high and mighty attitude here of oh tattle on yourself. </p>
<p>My daughter has good character. She is a different person now then she was at fifteen. For how many years was she supposed to pay for a bad stupid thing she did one day? Guess to some she should have to keep explaining and apologizing for the rest of her life.</p>
<p>Some can talk about values all they want as if they own what the heck that even means. Life has many gray areas. Life is messy. People mess up. And to tell your kid, hey, you paid for what you did, this doesn’t and shouldn’t have to follow you for years. </p>
<p>If that’s bs and a character flaw in so,e judgmental eyes so be it. Even the church doesn’t need you to confess over and ver and over again.</p>
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I would never encourage my child to lie in response to a straightforward question. But I would also teach them to think critically about whether a question is straightforward or not. I think it would be absurd to state that you were “found responsible” for a violation if you were actually exonerated. It’s certainly a much closer question as to what you should do if it was expunged, but it’s not straightforward.</p>
<p>^And that would be the textbook definition of quibbling, semantic-izing, lawyer-izing etc., at least in my book. To each their own.</p>
<p>There is honesty and there is integrity. They are not the same. I a, not totally honest all the time. But I do try and live a life of integrity. Do I go over the speed limit and then report myself. No. But if I was truely honest in all aspects of my life I should. If the person at the register gives me too much change, do I give back the change. Yes I do. That’s integrity. I walk my dog off leash in the mornings at a park that’s supposed to be on leash. Is that dishonest, maybe, does it show I lack intergrity? Not really. Do I sometimes feed a meter? Sure I do. Is that dishonest. Probably. Should I let myself get a ticket? No that would be stupid. </p>
<p>Seeing the judgemental attitudes of those here, and knowing my daughter, and having trust in my daughters school, and knowing what she did and went through, I have no qualms or guilt. </p>
<p>If you want to talk legal, our system is designed that way because there is so mich grey and thank goodness for that. Stealing a slice pizza is nOt the same as stealing a car. But both are stealing. So should be black and white, but we are wise enough to see the difference. So dont think lawyer speak or whatever is trivializing or dismissing the situation. It’s something that protects us.</p>