Will suspension affect merit aid offers?

Parents Forum
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<p>I’m of the opinion that if there is no actual criminal record, then the matter is between the high school and the student. Therefore, if the high school decides it has the authority to tell the student not to report the incident, then the student cannot be faulted for listening to the school and not reporting.</p>

<p>@wolverine
If you were wrongfully convicted, and then exnerated, the question doesn’t apply to you, since the people who have the power to convict you basically said you were never responsible for that which you were accused of.</p>

302

<p>“I’ve stayed quiet, but, this happened to one of my sons. He was not suspended but instead had a 4 week disciplinary action.”</p>

<p>So, by the terms of the question, it was likely irrelevant to begin with. ("probation, suspension, expulsion, etc.) BUT, had he recorded yes, and told adcoms what he learned about unfairness, that people make mistakes, moving on, and forgiveness, he might have had a leg up in admissions that he decided to forgo.</p>

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<p>renoverchat…There are major differences from state to state and HS to HS on what the policies are for reporting disciplinary actions to universities (reference the NACAC presentation linked earlier in the thread). IMO, that’s precisely why the onus should be on the student (and why the Common App asks them as well) to tell the truth about their infractions. Not the HS’s version of the truth based on their particular policy, not their parent’s version of the truth, simply the whole truth. If there are extenuating circumstances, that’s why the universities ask for the explanation to accompany the App.</p>

<p>There is a completely separate second question for criminal offenses, so why would you disregard any academic or strictly school related infractions when that’s obviously what the App is asking about? If a university is considering a student for admission, it’s up to THEM to decide what information is pertinent to that decision. It’s not left to the discretion of the applicant to determine what’s important or not.</p>

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<p>

I wasn’t trying to evade anything–I was trying to smoke out what I think is an extreme hyper-literal reading of a question that isn’t actually crystal clear. And I think I was successful, by the way.</p>

<p>mini, you keep repeating that admissions officers make it clear what they want. Do they, to applicants? I’m imagining a student who has had an offense “expunged” by his high school taking the Common App question to his guidance counselor for guidance. What is the guidance counselor going to say? I can guarantee you the GC is not going to say, “It’s OK for you to lie in response to that question.” Either he’s going to say that the student should answer yes, or that the student should answer no. Once the student receives this answer, what more, exactly, do you expect him to do? If you don’t like it that some high schools are claiming the power to tell the students these offenses don’t exist, you can take it up with them. Or you can petition the Common App to add language like Villanova did.</p>

305

<p>Let’s deal with the facts about what the OP was asking and forget the “pile on” as OldFort said for a moment. Patterns of drunkedness, traffic tickets, cheating (which is like stealing), stealing - they are completely different matters entirely. </p>

<p>In this case, a very decent student was drunk at a prom. We do not know the backstory, because it wasn’t provided. We do not know if it was her first drink. We do not know her body build - if she is 5 feet tall and weighs 95 pounds like my D, one drink, especially if it was her first would make her drunk. We do not know if she felt pressured by her date or her limo group. We do not know anything other than she was drunk and the school took action. The school administered a punishment and told the girl and her parents that she did not need to report the incident to colleges - so in effect, it was being erased from her record. </p>

<p>From here she has a decision to make. There is not one of us here that would not be tempted to answer “no” in that box. That’s the honest truth. I think I know what I would probably do in this case, but I can’t be 100 percent sure, and if the OP makes a different choice, I believe that they are entitled to do so. </p>

<p>I believe by answering “yes” and fully disclosing the circumstances, there is no worry of anyone turning her in or it coming back to haunt her in the future and no worry about answering the question in a way that could be perceived “dishonest.” I’d have my D write a stellar essay about all of this, including insight about some very sanctimonious advice of “well intentioned” people. Tell her to be brutally honest about these people - talk about irony. </p>

<p>To all of the parents that stand on the moral high ground about honesty and integrity as RELATED TO THIS POST, did you ever consume alcohol under the legal age - even ONCE in your life? Will your college student consume alcohol under the legal age - EVER??? Did you know that if you answered “yes” than you/your kid broke the law? Did you turn yourself in or are you prepared to turn your kid in if they even consume one drop of alcohol under the age of 21 outside your home? If not, why not? Is it because they did not get caught? They broke the law though and according to your own logic the honest thing would be to turn yourself/your kid in.</p>

<p>Let’s hope the original OP’s D doesn’t decide to the the RA to your college kid. The lesson she has learned is that there is ZERO tolerance for this behavior. Forget the three strike rule at most colleges. Forget the fact that underaged drinking is practically sanctioned by universities in fraternities and sororities.</p>

<p>Whatever the decision that the OP and her D makes, I wish her well. Please keep the lines of communication open with her about everything. Let her know that no matter what, she can come to you. You may not be happy about bad decisions but you have been there. Please let her know that mistakes happen and that you love her. Please know that everything will be okay. Her future is bright.</p>

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<p>^^ post 303 because of what I said earlier – needing to know something and wanting to know something are different. Colleges are on record of saying they ‘want to know’ not they ‘need to know.’ And I disagree, it is the discretion of the applicant what information they put in an application. Hopefully it’s validated by the transcripts and what the school reports, but it is the ultimately the applicant who fills out the application.</p>

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<p>To add to the whole what “admissions counselors want” blah, blah, blah…my D told me that her professors said that they have a hand in the admissions of their students. They are looking for interesting, well rounded students that uniquely add something of value to the student population. It’s ridiculous to think that an ad com has some black and white formula about what they want in a student. Talk about a gray area - wait until the college acceptances roll in. Many students with “perfect” records WILL NOT get in.</p>

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<p>Teenagers are knuckleheads. That’s what they do. Hopefully, yours will see the panic and shame in your eyes and redeem themselves. </p>

<p>My own take is that I presume your teen is under 18. In most states, that means any police reports will remain sealed. Juvenile justice is more about redemption than punishment. </p>

<p>Just be glad that it wasn’t shoplifting or illegal drugs. Those are killers of hope and dreams.</p>

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<p>mom…IIRC, every college application our D filled out had some sort of statement included which stated “I certify that all the information included is complete and accurate to the best of my knowledge”…or something similar. While we can disagree on the interpretation of “responsible” in the earlier hyper-critical example, there is certainly no way you can reconcile your above statement with what the Apps themselves state.</p>

<p>I spoke with a family friend this morning who is an Adcom for a Common App school to see what her school’s take on this would be. While I grant you it’s only a one school sample size, her university’s Admissions Office believes exactly what I was saying earlier. Because of the VAST difference in how HS GC offices handle disciplinary actions and reporting, her Adcoms expect the students to truthfully self-report any disciplinary actions against them simply because the HS’s policy may or may not provide them the info. They honestly don’t care whether your HS “cleanses” your record, from their point of view they expect the student to be honest and report the incident because they’re applying to a DIFFERENT institution who has the right to make their own determination. Removing infractions from a HS student’s record may be beneficial if an employer or whomever is only looking at the official transcript/record at face value, but in the university’s view it certainly doesn’t give the student carte blanche to avoid a direct question.</p>

<p>Cheating or offenses which endanger other students (weapons, etc.) are understandably viewed more harshly than others, but in nearly every other instance an honest admission to the infraction along with a valid, reasonable explanation had NO ADVERSE EFFECT on the student’s application, and as vlines and others have mentioned was actually viewed positively.</p>

<p>She was aware of a few instances where student/school responses to the question did not agree. If a student “Yes” contrasted with a school “No”, the student’s response was taken as truthful and handled as I said above. If a student “No” contrasted with a school “Yes”, that DEFINITELY sends up a red flag in their office.</p>

<p>As I said, it’s only a sample size of one school and there’s no guaranteeing that all Common App Adcoms handle it the same way. But it certainly ought to give pause for thought on how students with infractions (minor or otherwise) might want to handle the question.</p>

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<p>Mini,
People (students and adults) are unfortunately falsely accused of things more often than “rarely” as per the examples above and perhaps your school to prison links may suggest. But I dont agree with the way you characterize Hunt and his statements. And if you are going to call people “liars” who dont report infractions deleted from their permanent record, then call all the counselors at schools who dont report these accused infractions “liars” (as in the NACAC link I provided) and call all the homeschooled parents who don’t impose an infraction if their kid is caught (by them or whoever) cheating on a test a "liar " too.</p>

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<p>^^Wolverine: Only if you attribute that “power” to adcoms – the premise that they need to know every stinking little thing about a kid that would have little to no bearing on the student’s ability to assimilate and succeed in their environment. I choose not to attribute that as a “need” dependent on the circumstances. Morally I find it no different than omitting a job from a resume that someone took, ended up hating and left after 3 months or less. It’s unnecessary noise and a distraction to the applicant and the person reading the resume or application. Would a company want to know an entire employment history…sure, they will say “yes” if you ask them…do they need to know…in my opinion no. </p>

<p>No one is going to “win” this argument because it’s not black and white and has more to do with human nature. Some people will NEVER cross in the crosswalk against the walk light and other people look left and right and decide they are going to cross. It’s only “illegal” if there are laws in that jurisdiction that spell out with specificity what someone should do at a crosswalk. If there are no laws it’s an individual decision whether to agree with a red sign that says “don’t walk” even if the people who always wait until the sign says walk are rolling their eyes because you violated something they “obey” and think is correct. The individuals “own” their decision if the “law” doesn’t own their decision.</p>

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<p>mom…Of course I attribute that “power” to Adcoms…it’s THEIR SCHOOL!!! Who else should determine what information THEY need to make an admissions decision? How do you decide it’s “unnecessary noise and distraction” when THEY SPECIFICALLY ASK FOR IT???</p>

<p>I agree with you completely about leaving work history off of a resume…it is the same moral decision. In both cases, you’re talking about intentionally withholding information from someone who directly asks for it, simply because you think it might have a detrimental effect on your application. I happen to view that in a bad light…others will disagree. As you said, no one will “win” since everyone is guided by their own moral compass and is rarely going to change their minds. Apparently even concrete, black and white confirmation from at least one Common App school isn’t enough to sway your opinion. It is what it is.</p>

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<p>Correct and it doesn’t make you morally superior nor does it make me morally superior or Hunt or Mini or any number of people it just shows that people live in our society guided by a variety of beliefs that are not governed by law and that exist on some continuum.</p>

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<p>

This is, IMO, trite. Probably not the wonderfully stellar essay opportunity or opportunity to demonstrate ones moral compass in some way that wows the adcomms, unless some really interesting, unique situation occurred. For instance (true story). A bunch of kids (call them group 1) were in the hall outside a classroom just before homeroom was to start (problem one-- they are not supposed to be in the hall before the schoolday began but thats another story). I think they’d just put their band uniforms and instruments in the bandroom and were sitting/lying around talking. Some kids (call them group 2) come up and start to bully one of the kids sitting/lying on the floor on his bookbag. So some of the kids in group 1 come to the defense of the kid being bullied. Someone in group 2 tries to kick the kid lying on the ground. My s came to his defense to block the kick from the bully with his foot, but in the process accidentally kicked his friend who was on the ground (problem 2 -potential accusation of “assault??”). OK-- everyone was hauled into the GC’s office, and, IIRC, fortunately there were no infractions cited for my s (dont know about the other kids). Maybe s got a 1 hr detention for being in the hallway before class. I really cant recall as it was many years ago. But in that circumstance, had he been given a disciplinary infraction, it might have made for an interesting essay. The run of the mill “I was accused of cheating but exhonerated” essay is likely overdone. </p>

<p>As for the interpretation of the common app question

It asks FIRST if the student was found responsible. It doesnt ask first if the student was disciplined, and I agree with the posters who say if their GC tells them the school will mark “no” to this question (if a student might have been disciplined but later NOT found responsible) then the student is entitled to answer likewise. This is a factual question, not a moral one. In reality, in this type of circumstance (where the students was wrongfully accused-- disciplined first, ask questions later) circumstance, the student was NOT found responsible for a violation that resulted in disciplinary action, so the answer to the original question would be “no”.</p>

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<p>One of the many good things about the very clear question is that the adcoms who wrote it anticipated the cases where the student was found responsible but the school said they would get rid of the record of the offense if the student behaved in the future. That’s why they explicitly asked students to report if they had ever been placed on probation. They really did a good job, and then admissions officers, when asked about, say explicitly they would like students to err on the side of reporting, and that not disclosing is lying.</p>

<p>It’s terrific when guidance is so clear.</p>

<p>" And if you are going to call people “liars” who dont report infractions deleted from their permanent record, then call all the counselors at schools who dont report these accused infractions “liars” "</p>

<p>If they are explicitly asked to report and don’t, they are liars. But the Common Ap asks students questions, and they are what they are. Students, however, are not asked to report infractions. They are asked to report when they have been “found responsible” for infractions, and that punishment results in probation, suspension, expulsion, etc. That’s a very, very big difference.</p>

<p>College admissions people are smart. They know that kids drink, drug, sexually assault, shoplift, steal, lie, cheat, and bully. And dress badly. They choose not to ask about any of this, and know that these behaviors go on at their respective campuses. Maybe they should ask, but they don’t. What they do ask is for students to report if they’ve been “found responsible” for academic or behavioral infractions that result in probation, suspension, expulsion, etc., and provide an opportunity for applicants to share what they’ve learned. Not as a punishment, but as an opportunity.</p>

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<p>Its probably equally likely that they did not purposely word it this way to be oh-so-clever, but that rather its simply a poorly worded question. People are human and compromises are made amongst groups of very well intentioned experts. Just look at the new DSM V coming out. Lots of problems likely to ensue from a document written by well intentioned experts. They made some last minute decisions on wording and what to enclude/exclude so as not to cause the third extension of the deadline/release of the book. Could easily be true for the common app as well.</p>

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<p>They worded it that way because they WANT information they THINK will guide them in THEIR decision making. The question could be omitted from the common app and become a question on the GC recommendation form and there would be no ambiguity forced upon young people. The high school reports it or they don’t report it. There is really no NEED to ask the question twice in my opinion.</p>

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<p>jym626…See my post #309. At least one Common App school disagrees with your interpretation. Since they’re the ones asking the question, I’d defer to their interpretation but you may disagree.</p>

<p>As momofthree says, everyone lives their life as they see fit. I personally prefer the simple approach to things. When asked a question, I give a straight answer. If the question seems confusing, I ask the questioner to clarify. Simple. I choose not to waste time and effort trying to infer what someone else’s meaning was, and I definitely try to avoid any thought process that involves “how would the lawyers and judges interpret this”? To each their own. I don’t see the point in trying to be evasive. It doesn’t change the facts, it merely clouds them. I hope none of the folks who argue in favor of “gray area” and “open to interpretation” ever have to pass a stringent background investigation for security clearances or the like. With 20+ years of experience talking, these investigators and prospective employers don’t accept “gaps” in work histories or personal interpretations of direct questions. It’s easy to do so on college apps, it can be much harder in real life. YMMV</p>

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<p>I saw your post. Indicates that one adcomm disagrees. No guarantee all the adcomms at that school feel the same way. Merely that there may be some required concensus.</p>

<p>I think cormom’s post# 505 is well said.</p>

<p>And police interrogators ask questions all the time. Sure,they are the ones asking the questions and want information. Doesnt necessarily make it right</p>

<p>And the specific college adcoms are not the ones asking. The common app is a form available to the colleges, with the question being part of this form.</p>

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<p>You edited your post, mini, to add:

Who exactly would explicitly ask the parent/homecchool teacher to report? The school administrator, who happens to be the same parent? Do they hold a meeting with themselves to discuss this? Really? </p>

<p>

Correct. So if they have not been found responsible, they can say no, whenther thid decision was made before OR AFTER the discipline. </p>

<p>I’d be most surprised if ANY homeschooled parent, even if their kid is being homeschooeld because the public school system woudl not accept them for whatever reason, would impose a disciplinary sacntion on their own kid, evcen if a clear infraction occurred. So to me thats lying too.</p>