<p>Honestly, seahorsesrock, I don’t think it is any different than a bad grade following a kid. If a kid gets a C in their governemnt class in 10th grade, that follows them. Even though it was their only C, it was a dumb decision to skip a test, and they never let it happen again. </p>
<p>That C would decrease their GPA, and quite possibly (but maybe not) effect their ability to get merit scholarships. </p>
<p>Why should that student have that grade follow them, but a student with an academic/behavioral infraction that resulted in a suspension not follow them? </p>
<p>Have you ever heard of a school wiping a year end grade of a C completely off the student record “just because the student was sorry and did not let it happen again”?</p>
<p>What nerve! They’ll put that C on their transcripts, as a punishment!</p>
<p>Question from admissions interviewer: “Have you ever been adjudged responsible for an academic or behavior infraction by your school for which your received disciplinary consequences, such as probation, suspension, or expulsion?”</p>
<p>Answer from student applicant: “On the advice of my school, I’m not supposed to answer that question. And my mother said whatever it is was that I’m not supposed to answer about shouldn’t follow me around for life. Can we try another?”</p>
<p>“If ten kids were accused of cheating in high school and you were the one kid who didn’t really cheat but it “appeared” that you cheated and took your “licking” perhaps you were not actually responsible.”</p>
<p>It doesn’t ask whether you were actually responsible. That’s the beauty of the question. It only asks a factual question: whether you were “held responsible”.</p>
<p>my question was not lawyerizing, it was a question</p>
<p>when did you graduate high school? what is the correct way to answer that question?</p>
<p>there is no one way to answer it, and every answer is a version of the truth, is not sharing the details of when you graduated lying? is not sharing you were held back so gradated later lying? </p>
<p>but hey, if you all are so confident in what you think truth is bully for you, </p>
<p>say the school initially said suspenion, but then called it detention, what should the student say? i was sorta suspended but after more discussion and to get it over with detention was a mutually satisfying result? in that case,is it reportable? as through the course of the event, things shifted and the school was less punitive</p>
<p>go forth and spill your guts if that works for you, me I hold some things closer to the vest</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Things change, and you do not always know that the rules have changed. People change, and the way things are handled change. So it may end up in the college info and you not realize it. </p></li>
<li><p>Why is the school encouraging a student to not answer the question at face value? Is there a gain to the school if the student does not answer in a straight forward manner? </p></li>
<li><p>If the school tells you to send score choice to a school that says they want all test scores taken (do not accept score choice), do you do that too? How would you feel if that same school decided not to call you, the student’s parent, about something your student did that was unsafe? They tell the student “we won’t tell your parents you were caught smoking this time, but if you do it again, we will notify them”.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>If you were directly asked if you were held back…yes, it is. Why would anyone even consider using any answer to “When did you graduate HS” other than the year? Answer…they wouldn’t, because they would know with such a simple, straightforward question what was being asked.</p>
<p>If you equate being truthful with “going forth and spilling your guts”, then by all means I’ll spill away. You obviously are comfortable with your own view of the world and the “nuances” therein…so Vaya con Queso.</p>
<p>I’m reminded of Westley and Vizzini…“your intellect is truly dizzying”. Lord knows…I’m certainly feeling dizzy.</p>
<p>SMH. This thread has turned into something it shouldn’t have. </p>
<p>I agree with those that feel witholding information that is directly asked for is dishonest. I disagree with the self righteous way a few of them have expressed that opinion in this thread. I suspect these same people are trying to live vicariously through their college bound children, and it’s shameful. </p>
<p>@Stickers. Don’t withhold the information about your daughter’s suspension on the common app. Even if the school doesn’t report it, there’s nothing stopping a jealous student or parent from anonymously tipping the school off, and that would, pardon the expression, really suck, for your daughter. Who would do such a thing? See my above paragraph. It happens more than you think. Be forthcoming and hope for the best. </p>
<p>However, also prepare for the worst. It would be wise for your daughter to also apply to schools that don’t use the common application, and won’t ask her to disclose any disciplinary action. There are lots of great schools, private and public that have their own application. </p>
<p>what do you think is self rightous about saying that not truthfully answering this particular question tasked on the CA is lying? Especially since you agreed that not answering it honestly is dishonest.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>that is another really good point. I have seen at least 2-3 threads in the past 2 weeks where students are asking how to “turn in” a student that cheated/lied to the college they were accepted to.</p>
<p>Though in reality, it is not the way one usually thinks of cheating. It was actually more like lying, or at least failing to tell the truth. Looking back at it, I think it would have been better for me had I cheated rather than lied. (See my high school episode.) The lie got me where I wanted to go, but it had consequences. I could have cheated (and got away with it), but I chose deception instead. </p>
<p>Needless to say, looking back at it, I think school (and my success at school) cheated me out of an education, but that’s for another time.</p>
<p>Seahorserock is concerned about the consequences her daughter might have faced if this adolescent transgression were disclosed on her Common App.</p>
<p>Okay, well let’s say I have the same concern . . . but different situation (alluded to in some of the more recent posts above). Hypothetical: my dear son, on his own and without his school’s knowledge or involvement, took an online course and got an “F”. He’s otherwise a straight A student . . . but didn’t realize how demanding this course would be, or that it would conflict with his other commitments . . . blah, blah, blah. The only way his school will ever know is if I pay to have the transcript from the online course forwarded to the school.</p>
<p>So, here’s the question: When the Common App asks for a list of ALL courses he’s done since 9th grade (or whatever it asks), can we just quietly omit this one? After all, no one knows, and there’s no way anyone will ever find out. And he’s not really THAT much to blame . . . he just didn’t know what he was getting into (much like Seahorse’s almost blameless child above).</p>
<p>To me, the ethical question is the same . . . either way, you know the school’s not going to tell. So, do you exclude the info because you know you can get away with it?</p>
<p>(If you’re wondering what my answer would be, just look at any of my posts above.)</p>
<p>What if he was valedictorian, but had the school known, the “F” would have indeed been counted in his grade point average. What if he then told the school, but they told him not to worry about it, and not to report it to anyone? (After all, they’d have to go look for a more “deserving” valedictorian, and they really wanted him. The principal wasn’t fond of the girl with the second highest average, and besides, he also was a star football player, and she was just a nerd.)</p>
<p>The issue that Hunt keeps valiantly trying to address is the situation in which a student was perhaps initially subject to disciplinary action but later found to be wholly innocent. Say said valedictorian was accused of helping another student on an open book test by leaving his notebook for that student. Lets say student B had been tutored by the Val, and that he was subsequently found with the Val’s notebook during a test (and that this was against the rules). And lets say the valedictorian was intitially accused of helping the student cheat and therefore suspended for a day, and a note placed in this file for aiding and abbetting (or whatever the school version of this might be).</p>
<p>And lets say that the Val appealed the charge and was subsequently found to be innocent, that there had been a huge misunderstanding, and that Student B had pilfered the val’s notebook without permission and was plannig to put it back before the Val noticed it was missing. Administration removed the letter of reprimand from his file and apologized for the confusion. In sum, the Val was never “found responsible for a disciplinary violation” even though he was suspended (subject to disciplinary action). Does he have to respond “yes” on the common app?? Not “should he”, but does he have to?</p>
<p>I guess the phrase “determined to be responsible” means that they committed the academic/behavioral infraction. </p>
<p>In my mind, if they were at any point found “not responsible” for the infraction, then no, they would not report it. </p>
<p>We have speeding cameras here. More than 60,000 tickets that have been issued are being voided, even though they have been issued. Why? The cameras are not calibrated properly and the tickets were inappropriately issued. </p>
<p>Those people were intially found guilty of speeding, but were cleared. So they will not have points on their licenses, and their insurance will not be notified. So would they disclose that they were found guilty of any minor traffic violations (even though later cleared) if asked on an employment application? </p>
<p>I would think no, but wonder if everyone would think the same.</p>
<p>I agree with your line of argument vlines… But as an aside,I believe those “camera-caught-county-moneymaker” tickets are neither reported to the drivers insurance companies nor do they put points on one’s license. They are just revenue producers. So, if peple pay the fine and later the cameras are found to be completely inaccurate, do the states refund the fines to the falsely accuses speeders (non-speeders)?</p>
<p>Would they really be sexpected to list a speeding ticket or improper lane change on a job app?(assuming its not a job as a busdriver or something)</p>
<p>But it was a point I was making. Maybe the question is if you do get a speeding ticket via camera that you have to pay a fine for, but it does not result in notice to your insurance or points, do you report it on the job application. For that question, I would say yes, you do. </p>
<p>Or if you change insurance companies, and they ask the question about moving violations, how would you answer?</p>
<p>“The issue that Hunt keeps valiantly trying to address is the situation in which a student was perhaps initially subject to disciplinary action but later found to be wholly innocent.”</p>
<p>It happens. It is extremely, extremely rare. And, as already noted, twice, it is easily dealt with.</p>
<p>It’s just Hunt’s way of evading the main issue where (in all the cases reported here, rather than the rarefied hypothetical ones that lawyers are paid to imagined), the student was found to have committed the infraction for which s/he was punished - not by detention or demerits - but with probation, suspension, or expulsion. </p>
<p>Reporting as required is not a punishment. Not reporting is lying, or so the college admissions officers clearly and unambiguously. They don’t like liars. Can’t say I blame them.</p>
<p>To post #290, what if the online school had a policy that if a student were to take the course over and receive a higher grade, then the F could be replaced with the higher grade. Wouldn’t it ok for the student to list the higher grade because it is the school’s policy?</p>
<p>I’ve stayed quiet, but, this happened to one of my sons. He was not suspended but instead had a 4 week disciplinary action. It was ultimately determined that he should not have been disciplined but he also should not have been in the situation he was in. So he was guilty (by being in a situation he should not have been in) but not responsible (because he really didn’t do anything wrong). He did NOT check the yes box on the common app. Yeah, we were that rarity. My son recorded the incident on his iPhone but told no one for a couple weeks because he thought he’d get in more trouble for recording the situation, when in actually it proved what he was saying. IMO he shouldn’t have been where he was so there was also parental sanctions. I’m secretly grateful he was smart enough to record it. I’m sad he got two weeks of disciplinary action and missed some school EC things before everything got cleared up. This is the life of a parent. You ache for your kids, you care for your kids, you try to knock sense into your kids before they leave the nest and you fight for your loved ones when necessary. It was much fodder for conversation. The school did not reveal the 2 weeks of served discipline in his college apps…and that was the RIGHT thing to do. **** happens. Rare but it happens. Which is perhaps why I “get” what Hunt and sea are saying.</p>
<p>^^I get it, too. This has happened several times in our high school as well due to some over zealous administrators who have a tendancy to dole out suspensions first, for example at a Friday night football game, and ask questions later. By the time they determine what actually happened, it is the end of the next week and students they could have sworn were guilty were found innocent. Did they serve their suspension? Yes. Were they later cleared and found “not responsible”? Yes. Did either the GC or students check the YES box on the Common App question? No…And it was the right thing to do.</p>
<p>momofthree…And I “get” what Mini is saying. You focus on your interpretation of “responsible” and determine that reporting isn’t necessary, but disregard the portion of the question that asks if the student was disciplined for an infraction. That’s the point that’s being missed. Your son was disciplined for an infraction, AND it was later determined that the discipline was unwarranted. I’m glad for your son that the truth eventually came to light, but the fact remains that he was disciplined for it. </p>
<p>Why do you think the universities ask the student the question in the first place? They understand that everyone makes mistakes, and they want to determine what kind of lessons have been gleaned from those mistakes. They’re not looking to inflict punishment as others would like everyone to believe. Do you honestly think if your son had answered Yes to the question, and provided the same explanation you gave above, that it would’ve hurt his chances at admission to that school? You’re right…“stuff” does happen sometimes. Do you honestly think Adcoms don’t know that as well?</p>
<p>I understand where your interpretation comes from. I don’t agree with it, but I understand. Every parent wants to protect their kids, but how do you “get” parents who encourage their kids to deliberately lie on the App? There is a HUGE difference between your situation and others on this thread. Do you honestly think there’s ANY justification for those other situations?</p>