<p>All written documents are ambiguous. Here, again is the Common App question:
The question here, I think, is whether the high school has the authority to determine when, exactly, a student has been “found responsible” for a violation, and further, whether an expungement by the high school of that violation removes the obligation to report. I know I’m splitting hairs, but if the school suspends your kid for a violation, and then later finds out that he was innocent, and removes it from his record, does anybody think he should have to report that one on the Common Application? Does anybody think you’d have to report on the Common Application if a teacher made you write 500 times, “I will not talk in class?” I think if the high school asserts the power to expunge the violation, and says you don’t have to report it on the Common App, you can fairly take the position that you haven’t been “found responsible” for a violation, because your school says you haven’t.</p>
<p>Agree, vitrac. My question did not have anything to do with consistencies/inconsistencies within the public (or private) school system, nor issues related to race or any other digression. My question has to do with the potential inconsistencies or mixed messages parents give their children when dealing with these matters, as was being addressed upthread, and thus am asking about how parents of homeschooled kids would handle disciplinary infractions.</p>
<p>Just to clarify, the OP simply asked a question, and has not stated an inclination (one way or the other) with regard to her student’s response to this question on the Common App. If a “holier than thou” attitude has been expressed in this thread, it was not directed at the OP.</p>
<p>“thus am asking about how parents of homeschooled kids would handle disciplinary infractions.”</p>
<p>I would fast on their doorstep. ;)</p>
<p>I have spoken to or with almost 10,000 homeschoolers in the past 12 years, and I have to tell you that it has never come up - at least to me. I’m sure it could, and probably has, but it hasn’t reared its head in my world. I haven’t heard of case of a homeschooler being suspended or expelled, so, as regards the common ap, the question is a non-starter. (There have been run-ins with the criminal justice system, and I expect homeschooling parents would deal with those in the same way as everyone else - that is to say, inconsistently.)</p>
<p>There are homeschoolers of course who homeschool because they are forced to by school districts - actually lots of them - but they haven’t been part of my practice.</p>
<p>I’m still searching for the inconsistencies. I find many, many inconsistencies within the same school, between schools, and among schools, and that, far from being a digression, issues of race and discipline are very much on point. If certain groups are singled out either for suspension and expulsion, as well as by the criminal justice system, dealing with the common ap is further piling on. If you are parent, and know that, how do you deal?</p>
<p>No clue. We never did. (I can honestly say we never had any issues even remotely like any of those related in this forum.) fAnd remember that it would only be academic or behavioral issues *related to school<a href=“not%20general%20behavioral%20issues”>/I</a>, that would rise to the level of probation, suspension, or expulsion.</p>
<p>I agree with this which is why I don’t see any downside to disclosing. In doing so, I wouldn’t promise never to drink again, I’d be sorry for breaking the rules and putting the chaperones in a awkward and uncomfortable position. Nobody would believe a kid that got busted for being drunk if they said that they wouldn’t drink again.</p>
<p>I am beginning to think this question is not so black and white after all.</p>
<p>Couldn’t it be argued that since the school, in Seahorsesrock’s case advised her not to disclose the information on the common app, then it was in effect “expunging” the infraction from her record, and wouldn’t this be further evidenced by the fact that it does not appear on her record anywhere? Wouldn’t it be within their right to do so since they imposed the suspension in the first place? If you read the question, it does not ask about expunged offenses. Perhaps in her case, there is NO clear cut policy about reporting offenses and that is why she was advised the way she was so the school was not lying. </p>
<p>A question for the OP to ask - does the school have a stated policy about disciplinary offenses and how they report them to colleges? If it does not, and if the OP’s daughter’s offense is not recorded on her record, but in effect “expunged” then she should not have to report it. </p>
<p>The thing to keep in mind, and this includes the homeschooling argument - disciplinary actions and how they are reported are up to the policy of the school district. If someone does not like the policy of their school - take it up with the school board.</p>
<p>All that said, I continue to maintain that this girl needs to keep in close contact with her counselor. Mom and Dad - keep the lines of communication open with her regarding the role alcohol will play in her life.</p>
<p>It doesn’t matter what the school does. It is not what the Common Ap asks. Doesn’t matter if it is on her record anywhere - it is not what the Common Ap asks. It doesn’t matter what the school reports - it is not what the Common Ap asks. The Common Ap asks a very simple, straightforward question of the applicant that has nothing do with what the school does after the fact.</p>
<p>I am not sure what is considered holier than thou. Some people feel that it is lying not to put the info on the common app, and some think that it is not. Some think there is a gray area. </p>
<p>To me, the question asked is clear. If you chose not to disclose a disciplinary action, then you are not answering the question truthfully. </p>
<p>Others disagree. </p>
<p>I wonder if CB has any statements out on this subject.</p>
<p>seahorsesrock said her child was in a public school. I believe it was seahorses that also said her daughters record would remain clean as long as she did not get in trouble again (although I may be mixing stories here). </p>
<p>Either way, I would almost bet money that there is a “record” of the infraction along with the punishment and conversations regarding the infraction and investigation in that students file. It may not be on the actual transcript, or in any part of the record that is normally sent to colleges. But there is a paper trail. We live in a very litigious world. The school would not get rid of the paperwork that covers their behinds.</p>
<p>I also think that there is a difference in a students record being exponged because it is later found out that the student was not guilty of the infraction they were originally accused of, and it being exponged because the student “did their time/punishment”.</p>
<p>to clarify and to explain why perhaps my school did what it did</p>
<p>my daughter was one of a few kids who bought some brownies. two girls ate them and got very sick, taken to the hospital. they were asked who else was with them and who bought brownies and from whom</p>
<p>they named names, which was fine, i get that.</p>
<p>my daughter was never caught with any brownie, she never ate it, because if she had she would have gotten even sicker then the others as she is much smaller</p>
<p>she accepted the schools discipline with the understanding that while they had no “proof” she as still named, and it would be best if she went along, and if she did, no further action or reporting would be taken</p>
<p>i still feel if the school retracts the “infraction” or whatever, then its not reportable</p>
<p>and for those who think they have perfect kids and gosh never dealt with anything like this, wel, good for you. Some of use don’t live with perfection. We have to go to juvie court because our kid got a speeding ticket. Or our other kid was caught near a park after park curfew. </p>
<p>I can pretty much guarantee this particular question will be looked at as it is puntive</p>
<p>I feel for you. And you are absolutely right about the “imperfections”. The reason I posted the stuff about the “school-to-prison” pipeline is that has now become practice in some schools to call in the police if a child has a dress-code violation. That’s right. Dress-code violation=criminal record. And it is not likely to be expunged. If you are the parent of a child who has a criminal record for a dress code violation, how do you advise your child to answer the Common Ap question?</p>
<p>“The majority of the arrests, 67 percent, were for infractions like fist fights, dress-code violations, and talking back—schoolyard misbehavior that, in Florida and elsewhere, increasingly results in misdemeanor criminal charges. “The vast majority of children being arrested in schools are not committing criminal acts,” Wansley Walters, secretary of the Florida Department of Juvenile Justice.”</p>
<p>Now THAT to me is an ethical conundrum, not this stuff.</p>
<p>It’s lazy administering it what that is. So to add insult to injury, those kids are given double jeopardy. That’s my issue, if the school is over it, then the college should be as well</p>
<p>I am surprised those communities accept the cops using resources for dress code.</p>
<p>seahorsesrock- our school calls the police for everything too. We have a county officer in our school. Mostly, it is a wonderful thing. But for some, a double edge sword. </p>
<p>If your daughter was a student in my son’s school, she would now have a “criminal record” too. No kidding. They take their no-tolerance policy to the extreme. Actually, if caught with aspirin they call the police. </p>
<p>The question on the common app has many problems. I think that this conversation has brought up many problems with the question and the way it is handled by both the applicants and the schools.</p>
<p>I don’t think there are ANY problems with the question. It is clear, well-written, understandable, and what admissions officers want. (see #175) I think there are plenty of problems with school policies, school enforcement, the criminal justice system, and teaching our kids to lie. But those don’t have anything to do with the question. (as noted, questions - there are two.)</p>
<p>I’d like them to add a simple question - "Have you ever used alcohol or illicit drugs? If so, how often? Doesn’t mean the admissions offices would have to use it. Doesn’t mean students wouldn’t lie. But it would have great impact on students if they knew the colleges would ask.</p>
<p>I think that Hunt in post #161 may have the right idea. Note that the Comm App asks if “you ever been found responsible for a disciplinary violation . . . that resulted in a disciplinary action?” It does not ask if you have ever been subject to a disciplinary action. Instead, you must have been subject to a disciplinary action AND you must have “been found responsible for a disciplinary violation.” Why does the Comm App require both unless the Comm App people view them as different things?</p>
<p>There is no doubt that the student here was subject to a disciplinary action. But was she “found responsible for a disciplinary violation”? I would think it could be plausibly be argued that she was not, because the school basically told her to treat the suspension as if it never occurred. They suspended her to knock some sense into her head, but they didn’t view the infraction as rising to a disciplinary violation. </p>
<p>Also, did the student have the ability to contest the suspension? If not, whatever process was used to impose the suspension arguably was not a process with the procedural safeguards necessary to determine that a “disciplinary violation” occurred. </p>
<p>So I don’t think honesty requires you to report the suspension. But I also think you could report this with no ill effects at most colleges. Admissions officers know that “Kids will be kids.”</p>
<p>Actually the colleges aren’t asking these questions, the common app people are surmising what they think colleges want to know. Many, many applications don’t ask these questions or ask about felony convictions like job applications. There is much in the common app that is naval-gazing in my opinion.</p>