Will that college degree pay off? Some actual numbers

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As well as those already in the workforce (i.e. in the labor class) but not yet to the point of being able to retire (i.e. have not yet entered the capitalist class).

In addition to the faster pace of change that increases the risk of jobs and professions becoming obsolete, there are also other factors that increase the economic risk and stress for those in the labor class:

  • Desirable jobs tend to require higher levels of education and training than before.
  • Employers are less likely to do on-the-job-training. Instead, they are more likely to expect employees to have been educated and trained for the job at their own (money and time) expense.

In other words, the retraining-for-a-new-profession needed after oneā€™s profession becomes obsolete is likely to take more time and money than it used to, increasing the risk borne by the worker in case their profession becomes obsolete.

The above is applicable to STEM-based professions as well as other professions.

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363

I think most people in my generation are ā€“ because working ā€œ14 -16 hour days - by choiceā€ is not sustainable nor beneficial in the long run.

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Yup.

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The reality is there arenā€™t many jobs where 14-16 hour days for new grads are the normā€¦really just IB. And judging by the competitive interview process over the last 6 months for the Class of 2023 post-junior year internships, there are many willing to sign up for that life, at least for a couple of years.

Some consulting jobs might have some stretches where there are 14-16 hours days, but thatā€™s not the norm, not in MBB, nor in boutique firms.

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366

Thatā€™s one thing Iā€™ve definitely noticed over the course of my career. There is a whole cottage industry of certifications. The good is that it can be more accessible now - it used to be youā€™d have to go to an evening course through UC Extension or something like that. Now you can do training on your own schedule with courses through Udemy or similar and get certified at home or a test center. They also help an older worker stay more relevant. The bad is that many certifications are only good for 2-3 years - but some will extend that if you pay more when the expiration date is up. As if that extra money changed your knowledge level.

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I know many people including where I work that are 8-10 hr days. Mainly 8. But you want high paid. Some make 60k. Some 150k.

Some jobs require more. I could do mine in 8. But Iā€™m a workaholic. I donā€™t just do basic. I demand excellence of myself.

But again you need a job, need experience for 12 weeks. What, where, and how much should be secondary when you are struggling.

Many Ivyā€¦not saying youā€¦only want I banking, consulting or big tech and thatā€™s unrealistic for mostā€¦including Ivy.

Thereā€™s many in society, including Ivy, that may never make 6 figures at any point in their lives.

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This is in reply to ucbalumnus post with the chart showing the drop in percentage share of labor to valuation. I think part of the decline from 2000 to current is that the major growth companies are those whose value are not reflected by their revenue. For example Google had 180B in revenue for 2020, a lot right, but its value is around 1.19T. They employed around 144,000. Ford, a more traditional manufacturer, had around 127B in revenue and is valued at around 77.9B (not Trillion) and employ 186,000. Facebook (or Meta) has revenue for 2020 around 84B in revenue and a value of 720B and around 56604 employees. What this means to me is that the market value of the current largest companies is not tied as directly to revenue or cost of labor. Most of the companies with the largest capitalization are newer companies whose growth has occurred in the last 20 years. Itā€™s no wonder labors share has shrunk.

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Another reason for the declining labor share of the economy could be increasing market concentration leading less competitive markets with fewer firms, which can reduce employer competition for employees in some labor markets, as well as competition between producers selling goods and services to consumers.

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I think this is actually tied to materials and margin.

Ford has plants, buys components and as you note generates far less $ per employee than a tech company.

Tech companies (not equipmentā€¦i.e.software, cloud, etc) margins run 60, 70, 80% - a margin that trumps most manufacturers many times over. They donā€™t have plants nor buy components for manfuacturing like Ford does. Itā€™s also less employee intensive.

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And even manufacturers which required thousands of employees at one point now can have the same production with hundreds because of automation.

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Agree with this and @blossom #357 and @lvvcsf #356. For better or worse, Boomers are still active in industry and are in many, if not most, cases the ones making hiring, compensation and promotion decisions. For private (and even some gov/non-profit) enterprises, labor is a means/investment to profits (goals/targets) both short and long term. Will this hire at this pay improve the enterpriseā€™s prospects, or are there better/less expensive alternatives? If you are a commodity class laborer (big pool of people who can do the job required), a company will tend to seek the lowest cost hire. If you have a low supply/high demand skill, especially one with high variability in value add, a company will pay up because of both your scarcity and your potential value add. A company (its managers) will go through the same calculus when it comes to retention, compensation and promotions. Of course retention is important as turnover is expensive in training cost and temporary loss of productivity, but the mindset is not that the company owes anyone ā€œlife balanceā€, but is a necessary benefit to provide to reduce turnover and is a cost/benefit to the company to be managed.

The dynamics of the supply of necessary labor/skills and the value add of specific skills are always changing. I constantly tell my kids when they make important decisions, is this going to open more doors or close more doors? Yes, to get higher paying jobs and more responsibility, your skills need to become specialized, but some specialties open more opportunities than others. Whenever we talk about their jobs, I always ask are you gaining increased responsibilities, do people like working with you, are you a ā€œgo toā€ employee who is known for going the extra mile? This all has to do with making yourself less of a commodity and to make sure that you are perceived as a ā€œvalue addā€ employee. Hard to be that on a 9-5 plan. Never had an issue with employees leaving early on occasion or taking time off to recharge as long as they got their tasks done well and on time, which means working late, on weekends and over holidays on occasions.

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But note that it is more difficult to become an obvious ā€œvalue addā€ as an outsider (i.e. someone on the outside applying for a job) than as an insider (i.e. current employee recognized as a highly productive employee). This can be especially the case if some of your highly valued skills and knowledge are specific to your current employer.

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Yes, selling yourself can be harder coming from the outside, especially for an entry level position. You have to present validating credentials such as grades in relevant courses, professional certifications/licenses, job experience and recommendations. As you get further along in your career, hopefully you will also develop a positive reputation within your industry, some kind of positive track record of accomplishments or potentially your own book of transportable business.

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Iā€™m let my kid the religion major who is the head of intergovernmental affairs for cyber security know your thoughts

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Curiousā€¦maybe helpful for othersā€¦how did your kid acquire his background?

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Exactly, most people in those positions have JDs or elite school backgrounds. Hardly usual.

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I have been following and enjoying this thread and wanted to add my 2 cents
First I agree and the Data supports it, Engineering and Computer science Degrees will make a higher Salary at least the first 5 to 10 years out of College.
However, there is more to life
We have friends who are Nurses that work 3 days a week (12 hour shifts ) and are extremely satisfied with their pay and life balance
Friends in Law enforcement/Fire who are retired in their late 40s early 50s enjoying a nice pension.
Public sector workers with a defined benefit Pension that would take a 7 figure account to generate the income they receive

From my Professional Career, Im not an engineer or STEM major, but worked in Aviation the last thirty years until retiring last year and worked with engineers, mathematicians and rocket scientists throughout my career. In my experience they are great with Black and White problems but its the grey areas that can give them problems.

We talk about HYPS and FAANG jobs but they are the exception
Last Year Ohio State Graduated about 13000, Penn State about 12,000 compared to Harvard about 1600, Yale 1400, Princeton canā€™t find a number but 5200 undergrads total, Stanford 7000 undergrads total

Now for my kids, every parent wants them to be successful but we want them to be happy as well.

My S21 took four years of engineering in his High School it was a good program leading to industry certifications in Mastercam, Solidworks and Fusion among other aspects of engineering and he found out he does not want to do this the next 30 to 40 years.
He is a Freshman at a State School, FSU, majoring in Political Science/International Relations. He will not earn as much as a engineer starting out but he believes he will be happier. He is also taking steps to stand out against his peers, he is studying his first year abroad in Italy and this summer he will move to Spain for two summer semesters and is already looking for a foreign internship after his Sophomore year.
We talked about his choice of major and he realizes he will probably need to get a masters degree but he is also considering law school

My D23 wants to go into the Medical field, possible Med school, and is in her 3rd year of HOSA where she will be certified as an EKG tech and a medical assistant this year plus taking all the AP Science and Math etc. She cannot understand how her brother loved APUSH, Human GEO. World History and I donā€™t think hate is a strong enough word for her dislike for those classes.

Everyone is different and has to balance work/life priorities.
I always told my kids find something you like that someone is willing to pay you for.
My passion was Aviation.

Finally, many of us have that coworker who is miserable to work with and people say they are a great person outside of work. (they are there for the money and hate it) Unfortunately you have to deal with them at work.
Rant over

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And Iā€™ll let all the English majors I hired into my tech field at well above the salary range on those charts know what a waste that degree was.

Look, itā€™s fine to peruse pay scales to get an idea of the general pecking order, but itā€™s a terrible idea IMO to base your education on a chart. Many here have tried to indicate that career and life satisfaction are more tied to a love of what you do than what it pays. If what you love to do happens to fall high on the pay chart, great, but it is absolutely possible to build a satisfying, comfortable life at most of those rungs.

Itā€™s also OK to disagree with this and go for the gold regardless of interest in the field. I know many who have thinking theyā€™ll make bank for a while and dabble on the side or change careers later. Sometimes that even works out. How one approaches education is a personal choice, but life has a way of revealing the wisdom of our choices.

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Several posters have touched on this sentiment, but it is worth further emphasis.

The term STEM originated as a social engineering tool. Because of the tremendous variance in subject matter, skills and abilities to master the subject matter, etc., classifying things into STEM was never very useful. And it seems to become less useful as time goes by.

Even within the field of engineering, grouping people like chgemical and mechanical engineers is a huge stretch. Completely different topics, approaches, and personalities that gravitate to each.

Too frequently, people are forced into engineering for equity, scholarships, or the promise of good paying jobs. Even worse, some go for a more expensive option in this level field for prestige.

There should always be a contingency for the possibility that a kid will hate the field of their major. Families unfamiliar with engineering may be surprised how frequently this happens. The more they pay, the less freedom they will have to explore other career options.

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This. I canā€™t tell you how many times I have seen this happen. FWIW my H is a retired engineer who enjoyed his career. Neither of our kids were the least bit interested.

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