If you are looking for PhD engineers, it is not surprising that the bulk are not US citizens. It the latest NCES, ~60% of the 11k graduating engineering PhDs at US universities were international students. This trend has been occurring for decades. For example, going back 10 years earlier, ~60% of the 8k graduating engineering PhDs were international… The specific percentages and number of graduating PhDs varies widely by the field of engineering.
You missed my point. They are not living or working in the US, they did both their graduate and undergraduate degree abroad. They have no intersection with the US higher education system.
You are interviewing candidates for a US research position who do not live or work in the US?
I work in engineering, in a type of position for which candidates usually have a PhD. The companies I have worked for always hired persons living in the US who did their PhD in the US, although many did undergrad outside of US. A good portion of engineering work is outsourced internationally, but I think more often to reduce costs than not being able to find any candidates in the US.
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Thank you for telling me what my work should or should not be doing.
Edited to add. One of our top contenders is Mexican. And we can only interview people that apply for the job, no?
I didn’t tell you what you should be doing. I asked a question and listed my personal experience.
I guess you’re right. Yes, we can hire foreign nationals whether they are US educated or not. And as I added to my previous post, we can only interview those that apply for the job. My original point is that from my vantage point there is no overabundance of US STEM majors as someone that reads CC might deduce.
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Of course, CC is not real life so the emphasis on STEM here is not necessarily the way it is out in the wider world. That being said, just because there isn’t an abundance of Engineering PhDs doesn’t mean there aren’t lots of STEM majors. They simply may be going in a different direction - to CS, for example, or they may not be interested in doing research. Reading between the lines here on CC, most STEM focused students appear to be aiming for a job at one of the FAANG companies or, better yet, dream of their own start up (the next Mark Zuckerberg).
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Anecdotally, I’ll add that among my son’s close friend group (8 kids) only 2 are NOT planning on some kind of STEM major (my kiddo is one of those).
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There are several issues to break down. One is portion of students who pursue STEM majors. Students on the CC forums and students who attend highly selective colleges in general tend to target career fields associated with a higher salary – not just STEM, degrees that typically “pay off.”. For example, CS is common , econ is common, bio → med school is common, social science → law school is common, etc. Among the full US population, the distribution is very different. For example, business and nursing are 2 of the most common majors among the full population, but are barely mentioned on CC. In the latest NCES year, the distribution for bachelor’s degrees was as follows:
NCES Bachelor’s Degrees Distribution
Business / Management – 18%
Nursing / Health – 12%
Non-psych Social Sciences – 8%
Engineering – 7%
Psychology – 6%
Biology – 6%
Comm / Journalism – 5%
Performing Arts – 4%
Computer Science – 4%
Education – 4%
Law Enforcement – 3%
Fitness / Recreation – 3%
Interdisciplinary – 3%
Agriculture – 2%
…
Physical Sciences – 1.5%
Math / Stats – 1%
Whether nursing/health counts as STEM depends on definition, but the bulk of majors are clearly not STEM fields. Only 4% of majors were computer science in the latest NCES. This is a huge increase from the 2% CS majors a decade earlier, but there is still a large gap between supply and demand for CS majors, which contributes to the high average starting salary for CS majors. The gap between supply + demand and higher salary also contributes to why some companies are outsourcing a portion of work internationally. A similar statement could be said about engineering.
Another issue is the difference between STEM majors and engineering PhDs. Only small portion of US STEM majors pursue PhDs, with a large variability among different STEM fields. Engineering has a higher rate of PhDs than many STEM fields, but there are still 8-9x more engineering bachelor’s grads than PhDs. It’s often a lot easier to find engineering bachelor’s grads than engineering PhDs. PhDs are also often looking for specialized work, which can further restrict connection to employers. For example, one of my relatives spent months looking for work after his engineering PhD due to looking for a great fit with his specific subfield of research. He did eventually find a great job that fits well with his studies, but it was a longer search than typical for bachelor’s grads. The combination of lack of engineering PhDs and specialized work can make hiring more challenging.
As mentioned in my earlier post, another issue is the overrpresentation of international students among engineering grads, particularly PhDs. As noted in my earlier post, even at US institutions, the bulk of engineering PhDs are not US citizens. The reasons for this are multi-faceted. One factor relevant to the thread is the PhD paying off. Spending an extra what may be 6+ years in school and not working often does not pay off financially in engineering, with a wide variation among different fields. Unlike many other STEM fields such as biological or physical sciences, US engineering grads can often get a high salary position related to their major, without a grad degree. The small minority of US engineering students who choose to pursue engineering PhDs are often primarily motivated by something other than highest expected rate of financial return.
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I think it’s an interesting topic. As a real world example in my household, I borrowed like 20k for college. My significant other borrowed like 100k for his CS degree. We both work in tech. I’m 7 years older, but I currently make about 20-30k more each year. Maybe we will even out over time with him having that degree from a ‘better’ school. Maybe in 7 years his salary will be what mine is now. Maybe it won’t. He does make more than I did when I was 7 years younger. It’ll be interesting to track.
The important thing is that he thinks his degree was worth it, and he makes enough money to pay back those loans.
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I find this true but sad. Also pertinent to this thread is that most people don’t find career or life satisfaction out of maximizing their financial returns. That is just my humble observation and opinion. Most people that go into research do it because they love the work. I actually managed to save a little nest egg while in grad school and it took me four years not six (my undergrad was five years, however). This was in Europe. I probably would have made more in industry but it was not a convincing argument for my young and idealist self.
And sorry about all my voice to text typos. I should take a minute and type on my computer. 
Thanks for your thoughtful reply.
Our S recently graduated (MS CS) and only a few of his friend group opted to pursue PhD. Of the engineers one (EE) went to continue at MIT , one (CS) went to CMU, and one (EE) remained at Stanford for med school. The many others are all working FANG, or startups and many of those are in research groups within those companies. Not surprising that there is a big filter to PhD school - money and opportunity.
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Do you think that the cost of an undergraduate degree in the US is what might deter engineers/scientists educated in the US from pursuing an advanced degree? Most of the people we interviewed this last cycle come from countries where an undergraduate education is free and a graduate education is funded (as it is in the US for most engineering PhDs). Do you think there might be a correlation between the increasing cost of an undergraduate degree in the US with the lower interest in advanced degrees in opportunity rich majors like engineering? Thinking out loud here but I’d appreciate your thoughts if you have any on the subject.
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That’s primarily because many STEM grads from American colleges are able to get amazing jobs (especially in CS/applied math) with just a BA or a master’s.
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Exactly. The earnings premium for a CS PhD is pretty debatable (often negligible when you account for lost income during those five years). Financially, many CS grads are better off working at FAANG/unicorns or trying to get into tech management. PhDs are usually only for people who are very intellectually motivated, which does not describe most college grads regardless of major.
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That may be part of it, but perhaps the bigger factors are:
- US domestic engineering students can get good jobs with bachelor’s degrees.
- For an international engineering student, completing an advanced degree in the US makes it less difficult to get a job in the US than trying to get one upon graduation with a bachelor’s degree outside the US.
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Leaving this discussion now, but if you genuinely think unconnected, lower/middle-class kids regularly succeed with a BA in the humanities – I have a beachfront house in Kansas to sell.
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If it’s in Kansas (rural), that might be all they can afford 
Late to the party - I think people have to realize there are exceptions to every rule.
By and large, an engineer or CS major, based on historical figures at least, is going to outperform. An accountant is going to outperform. An Architect, etc will outperform. These are degrees leading directly to full time jobs.
While one will acquire great “soft” and transferable skills majoring in humanities such as classics or writing, sociology, poli sci or another social science, these in and of themselves don’t lead to direct career paths or actual defined positions. You might end up at Enterprise Rent a Car in a job that takes any major. Or a training program of any Fortune 500 company. or a claims adjustter for Allstate, etc. Grad school. A Starbucks - who knows.
My girlfriend from college was a Psych major and was a VP in Network Television - but there’s always exceptions to the rule as she was. I’m was a double major with Journalism and History and an MBA with a marketing focus - I call that 3 fluff degrees. Today, marketing is much more quantitative so likely stronger but not in 1998. After a brief stint in TV production and with a history degree (from Syracuse), I ended up in sales (and at 23 in the early 1990s made 6 figures…but that’s the exception, not the rule). I went to grad school because it was suggested by my former CEO - and I got in a rotational at a major automotive OEM where I did 4 disparate roles over two years that had nothing to do with my graduate education. btw - the Journalism program at Syracuse at the time required a 2nd major because Journalism alone doesn’t cut it career wise for 90% of the people. Not sure if they still require the second major - and they probably should have required something better than a social science.
My daughter is doing International Studies at Charleston. She fell in love with the major during a presentation at American U so applied for that major at all schols. Guess what - AU requires a 2nd major. Why? Obviously they know these majors are not job ready - and that’s after learning a language. The Honors International Scholars program my daughter is in at Charleston - same thing - needs a 2nd major - and she’s learning Chinese as part of International Studies which I hope will come in handy.
So yes, there are exceptions - and money is not everything but let’s be honest - we all pay bills and anyone who says it’s not important is not dealing in reality. I agree - one should pursue what they enjoy - but the thread is called what college degree pays off - and it’s typically not the liberal arts.
By and large, these STEM jobs (not all STEM majors) are going to create better and higher paid opportunities.
I would absolutely hire a humanities, religion or any other major in my department. I’d even hire an engineer - but i don’t think they’ll like the $40-45K out of college starting salary when all their friends are earning $60-80K.
What will happen in the future? Who knows? I thought the comment about the Radiologist in India was fascinating It’s the same with wall street stock analysts, btw. So it is an unknown and as they say, past performance doesn’t guarantee future results.
But let me say it like this - if it came to job security and financial success and I had two choices - degree in engineering from Murray State or a degree in Classics from Harvard - Murray State is going to win every day of the week (on average).
I have enjoyed everyone’s thoughts.
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Not the best example.
Among the Harvard students not going into tech or grad school, about 60% go into consulting or finance.
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I haven’t seen Harvard publish anything specific to classics majors, so it’s largely a matter of speculation. I’d agree that econ majors largely go in to higher earnings finance / consulting type fields, but I’m not as confident about classics majors. Yale publishes more specific information at https://ocs.yale.edu/outcomes/#!Classic . A summary of stats is below for all years:
Yale Classics Majors
Destination – 39% Work full-time , 33% Grad School, 8% Seeking work, 8% Work part-time
Among Working
Median Salary = $48k, Mean Salary = $49k (among full-time)
Industry – 44% Academia, 17% Finance, 11% Consulting, 11% Law, 11% Publishing
Function – 42% Teaching, 16% Consulting, 16% Writing, 10.5% Finance, 10.5% Law
Top Employers – ACES School, Bain, Belmont School, DE Shaw, Farrar Publishing, Japenese Exchange+ Teaching, Kostelanetz Law, Manhattan DA
Among Grad School
25% PhD, 25% JD, 25% MA, 8% MBA, 8% MPH, 8% MD/DO/DDS/DVM
In general, I’d expect engineering majors at ABET accredited colleges to have higher median starting salaries with a bachelor’s than the listed $48k for Yale classics majors. For example, the table below shows CollegeScorecard reported first-year earnings for engineering from a few years ago, without inflation adjustment. The median for all engineering majors at all colleges in the US was $63k. Among students with stats + background comparable to Yale grads, the median is likely closer to $75k. However, the referenced Murray State may be an exception since Murray State only offers undergrad engineering tech type majors. They do not offer mechanical/chemical/electrical/civil/… type engineering majors.
------------------ MEDIAN FIRST YEAR EARNINGS BY MAJOR -----------
Major ----------------- Ivies, T20, T50 Pri , T50 Pub, All
Engineering (All Majors) $70k, $73k, $69k , $67k , $63k
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