Tenured profs doing research? Or even tenure track profs? I never heard of anyone in that position teaching at a CC unless they were emeritus status. I would need an example, please.
FC, are you more referring to the sciences and the level of some stem projects at major research U’s? Ime, the issue with cc is more about the variation in students.
Small discussion here: http://chronicle.com/article/Its-a-Viable-Career-Path/135628/
I completely agree that the quality of students is a major point, it just wasn’t relevant to the comment I was originally disagreeing with, @lookingforward. But in fact I would put that ahead of this research issue when it comes to the difference in the quality of the experience. And I can speak to that first hand, because I took some summer courses at the local branch of the state U, presumably a “step up” from a cc when it comes to student quality, especially way back then. The difference in the atmosphere due to the academic level of the average student compared to Tulane was stark. If that sounds snobby I am sorry, but I have no idea how else to put it. I put in half the effort to easily get the best grades in my classes in both a Calc 3 course and a philosophy course, compared to what I had to do at Tulane to make sure I earned decent grades.
But to answer your question about sciences and STEM, yes I think it mostly applies to them but certainly not exclusively by a long shot. There is a lot of research that goes into anthropology, linguistics, history, and many other non-STEM subjects. The key, I think, is more the act of doing things that get published, and in most areas this can involve undergraduates doing research to support whatever the hypothesis or claim of the paper might be, not to mention the actual hands-on work that happens with anthropology, social work, and other field work based disciplines. None of this happens at cc’s to the best of my knowledge.
Have we come up with any valid evidence that there is a “College Bubble” in the first place?
Not that I can see. In fact, I am not sure it has been defined very well as to what it is that is being referred to by that term. Not like the housing bubble or the tulip bubble (run to the history books, those of you that are not familiar with one of the first “modern” examples of a bubble), which are clearly delineated as to what the bubble entailed and when it popped. Are we talking about the need to attend college at all (which seems to be the way most people are taking it, I think), the need to attend 4 year colleges, the student loan debt crisis, or what exactly?
My general perception is that people are using the term to indicate they feel college is too expensive and that everyone else feels the same way.
I can only assume they have little understanding for the Parable of the Pearl of Great Price.
It takes substantial inability in critical thinking to entertain the idea of there being a college bubble like the bubbles of ordinary investments.
Among the many differences between these two things is the ability of ordinary investors to put money in savings accounts or mattresses and the non-ability of our economy to provide a large growth in college-less occupations to accommodate would-be escapees from college cost. If they don’t go to college what will they do? The only way a large piece of the US population can avoid both high college cost and chronic unemployment of its offspring is use of less expensive forms of college.
I initially misread what was being said in the above, so I started out responding to something you didn’t say—but it’s a decent point for the discussion, I think, so I include that and then respond to what you actually said.
The initial response:
There are a few CC faculty doing research—in my own field of linguistics, I know two CC faculty who fall into this and see them regularly at a conference or two each year. However, they do it on top of their assigned workload, not as part of their positions at their CCs. I know that for one of them any research he produces is a sort of positive “bonus” for his annual reviews; for the other it’s much more murky whether it counts either way. It isn’t required for either, though, as part of their job.
Also, CC faculty do produce a fair amount of pedagogical research, which seems fitting for what they do.
That said, yeah, the vast majority of CC faculty, tenure-line or not, produce no research and are not expected to do so.
The actual response response:
When I was a faculty member at a (barely) doctoral-granting university in Florida, a number of the tenure-line faculty would earn summer cash by teaching at the CC just up the road, because it paid better for summer teaching. (Summer teaching at both places was paid at adjunct rates, and the adjunct rates at my university were even more shockingly low than adjunct pay usually is.) I don’t know of anyone who did this during the regular academic year, though I’m sure there have been one or two at some point (who were so desperate for cash that they were willing to let both their research agenda and their sleep patterns slide) who have done so.
At our state flagship professors had raises around 1-2%, only twice, since 2008. If someone wants to park on campus, there is a fee tied to salary. For someone making approximately $100,000 that fee is $800 annually. Insurance costs another $1000 annually. The parking fee goes up each year and so does the insurance payment. So professors at this university make less than they did seven years ago, maybe even before taking inflation into account.
Because of a couple of years of hiring freezes after 2008, and a general tendency to cut vacant positions rather than fill them, all faculty is doing much more teaching and service work than seven years ago. For less money.
There has become an expectation professors pay for much of their own professional travel. That also takes a bite out of salary.
^a tenured full professor with multiples books including one currently in press.
Fair enough, I completely concede that summer teaching didn’t occur to me at all. That makes sense to me that some profs would do that. As you point out, perhaps I was a bit too absolute in my statements, but the hugely vast majority of the time it is so, and thus the difference in getting an education at a cc is a very different experience than at a decent 4 year school for most students, both in the faculty issue and in many others.
@fallenchemist: All true—and the CC students may learn from those professors if they happen to register for one of those (few) courses, but they certainly wouldn’t have access to the research opportunities that would come from attending a 4±year school.
I’m not trying to knock CCs with this, BTW—I’m a product of the CC system, myself, and when finances are tight (or preparation is lacking, as was my case) it’s a really, really excellent option. But it does mean I had to work a bit harder as I completed my bachelor’s to take advantage of what was at the state flagship I transferred to, since I didn’t have any experience there or connections with faculty there from my first two years to build on.
@zobroward ur comment (#15) , is extremely true. I am testament to that or my neighbors and mom are. My neighbors have 3 kids, 2 of which went to UC san diego and majored in psychology. bummer they both came out and could not find a job. one of them even went back and is i think contemplating getting a masters in physiology which will put her and the family in financial stress because they are barely any to none scholarships for masters program. ON the other hand, my parents came to this country in 2003, my mom got her nursing associates degree in 2008 and has ever since been working as a nurse. It is a very technical field and there is always a demand for it. matter of fact there is a demand for it right now. my mom makes roughly 70k a year, and this is because she is 54 years old (looking like 40), and doesn’t have the vigor or energy to work more than 3 days a week. She actually just transferred to this computer department within her hospital that she says is way less tiring. On the other hand her really good friend who still works on the “floor”(regular nursing duties) as they call it, is 32 years old, works multiple jobs, as is the practice for young nurses. btw if you are a competent nurse, there will be multiple hiring agencies calling you asking if you want to work more and that they could provide another job for you (of course after they take their cut). but back to the story, my mom’s friend makes between 100k ~ 120k a year from doing the same job my mom does, but just working more. and the sad part is that my neighbors daughter is considering going to nursing school, and getting advice from my mom about whether or not she should, after realizing she wasted so much money on a b.s. psychology degree!
@fallenchemist
I guess I can’t speak for others’ experiences with community college, but I transferred to UCLA from Santa Monica College as a philosophy major and found that there was no significant difference in teaching quality between my community college professors and university professors.
One of my philosophy professors at Santa Monica College(Whom I took 3 classes with), in fact, got his PhD from a school that rivals UCLA’s philosophy program. He was an excellent educator and his classes were only a little easier than the classes I’m taking now at UCLA. Actually, most of my professors at community college were excellent at teaching the subjects in question and are comparable in quality to the professors at my new school.
Maybe some community colleges could raise their teaching standards, but many are better than you give them credit for.
I guess I should state though that among some people on this website’s forums, from what I’ve seen, community colleges in California are much more highly regarded than community colleges in other states.
Like I’ve said, IMO the big difference isn’t the teaching, it’s the opportunity for other things, such as mentored research.
(Well, and the fact that a depressing proportion of CC faculty are contingent, with little to no job security. But that’s best for another thread, probably.)
@dfbdfb
You’re right in that regard. I guess the most any community college student could do who wanted to do research is to seek it out from external sources, such as getting to know faculty from research universities and possibly getting on their good side. But they probably get last priority for research opportunities, and in any case, this isn’t a practical solution that could be pursued by all community college students that are interested in research.
Thankfully, in my field, research isn’t really a thing at the undergraduate level, for the most part.
…also…
Oh please.
The average college debt for the class of 2015 is $35,000…and that is only for the 71% of the class that has student loans. The other 29%, zippo. And if you look at overall student debt, it is only $23,000 for those who have loans.
Considering that they got a degree, education, 4 years of living expenses, that is not "horrendous debt’
It would be good if people could discuss this without all the silly hyperbole.
The problem is that when the news covers this, they find the outlier who has been in college for 6 years and has $200k in debt and no job prospects…they fail to mention what the average debt is and that for every one of those people, there are 6 other people with only 9k in debt in order to get to the 35k average!!
source: http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2015/05/08/congratulations-class-of-2015-youre-the-most-indebted-ever-for-now/
http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2015/06/08/heaviest-college-debt-burdens-fall-on-3-types-of-students
Even 25k in debt is a LOT of debt for someone who doesn’t even have a full-time job yet - or who has just started one…at an entry-level income, no matter what their profession.
BinBin: conventional wisdom has been that you need a masters to do anything professional in the psychology or counseling field. Also, there are tens of thousands of applicants a year who want to get into RN programs but who cannot get admitted. There is a particular shortage of spaces for nursing students in California.
I don’t think my entire four years of undergrad cost $25k, and that’s including room and board. But today, it’s OK and “normal” and acceptable for students to graduate with $25k or more debt? Starting salaries have not changed all that much in the past few decades.
What will be the “acceptable” amount of debt in 2025? In 2035? Shouldn’t we as a society be trying to reverse the trend of escalating debt rather than saying, “it’s OK. It’s only $25k.”