William & Mary vs Wisconsin Madison

College Search & Selection
1

<p>Hi everyone,</p>

<p>I'm majoring in Biology in undergraduate, and hoping to go to law school after that. I got admitted to both College of William & Mary and University of Wisconsin - Madison without any financial aid. However, I don't know which one to choose over the other.</p>

<p>I'm not so sure whether William & Mary is well known enough in the US, but I'm also kind of worried about 4 year graduation rate of Wisconsin (which is about 58%). Keeping in mind that William & Mary is in fact about $10,000 more expensive than Wisconsin, I want to know if I could get more out of it. Experience wise and academic wise. </p>

<p>I like the fact that William & Mary is a much smaller college, and students get more attention from professors. However, I also understand that Wisconsin has a better known biology program. </p>

<p>Which college should I choose? Does William & Mary have a good biology program?</p>

2

<p>William&mary is known throughout the US as an elite public college. UWisconsin is great, but W&M is better. And if you’re coming from outside the US, you may enjoy the weather better at W&M.
How would your parents pay for the extra 10k, do they have the money or would they have to borrow? </p>

3

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<p>UW-Madison is ranked 18th in biological sciences and fourth in microbiology by US News. CWM is ranked 130 in biological sciences. These are very different schools and you need to really know if you would be comfortable in a small college that is basically a liberal arts college with some professional schools or an extremely large university that is one of the country’s premier research institutions. BTW, smallness does not necessarily equal attention. It depends on the professor. This link will give you ideas about the research opportunities available for undergraduate students in biology at UW-Madison:<a href=“http://biology.wisc.edu/research.htm”>http://biology.wisc.edu/research.htm&lt;/a&gt;. </p>

4

<p>UW is known throughout the world as an outstanding university–especially for sciences. It places strong emphasis on undergrads and has outstanding facilities in virtually every science area.</p>

<p><a href=“World Reputation Rankings 2014 | Times Higher Education (THE)”>http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/2014/reputation-ranking&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p><a href=“http://www.shanghairanking.com/ARWU2013.html”>http://www.shanghairanking.com/ARWU2013.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

5

<p>tsdad: you’re talking about graduate rankings, right? Because those greatly correlate with research output, not with undergraduate experience ( for undergraduates, what matters most is: contact with professors, size of classes, quality of advising, personal attention, level at which the average class outside your major is directed, undergraduate focus, etc. as well as research availability. Research output really isn’t among the criteria, those are important only to grad students.)
UWi is a very good university, no doubt about it, but graduate needs and undergraduate needs are different.
I have no doubt however that a bright, motivated student at UWI will get research opportunities in biology.
What about the 2/3 of the academic experience? (Major = about 1/3 of your classes).
Comparing college towns, Madison is likely to be better unless one likes historical towns. Colonial Williamsburg is lively and the campus doesn’t lack things to do but Madison is well-known as an excellent college town, probably one of the best in the US. The weather in Madison is a bit tough, cold/snow, but that’s a matter of preference. Sports are also better at UWI. For breaks: more hiking, lakes, and snowshoeing opportunities from Madison, more historical visits and beaches from Williamsburg. Possible visits within a roughly 240 mile radius (~4 1/2hours drive) to Twin Cities and Chicago from Madison during big breaks; to DC, Richmond, Philadelphia, Greensboro, Virginia Beach from Williamsburg.
Some aspects of W&M can also be pretty intense (all kids are extremely bright and focused - it’s a highly selective state school. At UWi it’s the flagship but there will be a broader band of drives and preparations, which can be appealing. Overall it’ll be more laid back.)
Also, as was mentioned above, there’s the matter of preferring a very large university or smaller one (although W&M is not small - it’s considered medium-sized, being well over 3,000 - 3,000 is the upper limit for “small”).</p>

<p>Some numbers to compare both, with their +/-:
WM Top 25% 720iM, 740CR 740 W; top 10% ; 25%threshold: 630M, 620CR, 630W
UWI Top 25% 750M, 650CR 670W; top 10% ; 25% threshold: 630M, 530CR, 670W</p>

<p>Class sizes: 20 and under 48% W&M, 46% UWI
40 and more: 16% W&M (including 3% at 100 and over); 25% at UWI (including 9% at 100 and over)</p>

<p>Residential life: W&M: 100% freshmen live on campus, 72% all students; UWI : 90% freshmen live on campus, 25% all students</p>

<p>In my opinion, but ymmv, W&M would be better for an undergraduate who has research specifically as a goal. Not because research isn’t available at UWI, but because the “norm” at W&M will be undergrads focused on research and PHD programs, which is not the case at UWI. In addition, I would prefer the location. But really there are very good reasons to support either choice.</p>

6

<p>UW parent here – the graduation rate at UW should not be a consideration in terms of your own experience. That rate includes students who transfer back to other campuses etc. My son, at UW, has met 1st generation college kids as well as kids who have literally never left their small Wisconsin town until they came to Madison. Some of them decide to leave and finish elsewhere (or not finish at all). The peer group at UW is diverse – it is a big party school for sure, with great school spirit. You can see on youtube the spontaneous celebration on State St when the Badgers bball team made it to the final four. Some kids will party too hard and get 2.5s and worse. But there are many smart, focused, hard working kids taking advantage of the incredible opportunities. </p>

<p>Did you apply for Honors program at UW? There are undergrad research fellowships for honors students. Another way to get plugged into research right away is through the undergrad research program – you apply separately to it, and are matched up with professors and gets you in the lab etc right away. Take a look on the website for more info. </p>

<p>Another option is the FIG – first year interest group at UW. A cluster of thematically linked courses that 20 students take together. One is a seminar, and the others are typical intro lecture courses with small discussion sections led by graduate student. However, the discussion section is made up of only your fellow fig students, so you have 2-3 classes with the same group of kids. My son did a FIG fall of freshman year and loved it, as a way to meet kids who share your academic interests and as a way to shrink the first year experience. </p>

<p>As someone from the east coast, now living in the midwest, I would personally say UW has a better national reputation as an academic institution than William & Mary. W&M is known as a public liberal arts college which is difficult to get into as an out of state student. Cheaper for out of state students than your typical private, but significantly more expensive than UW for out of state students. Wonderful academics at W&M, and certainly much better weather than UW. </p>

<p>The fact that you are getting lots of advice supporting each option suggests that they are both great alternatives and you really cannot go wrong with either. Comes down to different kind of environment and setting. </p>

<p>Good luck with your decision, and congrats. </p>

7

<p>Yes these are graduate ranking, but the difference is so extreme 18 vs.130 that it is clearly going to be reflected in the quality of facilities, the number of faculty available, and the opportunities to do research. Size does matter and it does not necessarily mean poorer teaching. Indeed some of the graduate students that will lead the introductory courses will be among the best and brightest in their areas of competence in the country, and may be the world, and doing cutting edge research. Also remember, once a student gets into his or her major that department becomes the University for them, and it is a much, much smaller world. A world where you know your classmates and your professors.</p>

8

<p>tsdad: how does looking at graduate rankings for an undergraduate-focused college help? Notice that Amherst, Reed, Swarthmore, Grinnell… ie., the best in the country, aren’t represented either in the rankings…
In terms of PHD productions (ie, not only percentage of students from the science majors to are admitted to a grad program, but are admitted to AND complete a PHD program), this is the list by the National Science Foundation:
<a href=“Top 50 Schools That Produce Science PhDs - CBS News”>http://www.cbsnews.com/news/top-50-schools-that-produce-science-phds/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

9

<p>And in terms of absolute science PhD production/completion UW is #8 (1721) and W&M is #47 (698). The rest below Top 50. You really cannot compare large public U’s with small LACs in this regard. Far different students/goals to start with. </p>

10

<p>^that was my point: higher numbers at UWI, higher concentration at W&M. Different students/goals. Which why I said (above, but no post numbers…) that a student focused on research with the goal of a PHD may be better off at W&M, or OP may find that too intense, depending (“ymmv”). OP wants grad school, but apparently law, after a biology degree, but hasn’t indicated if s/he wants a more laidback school or a more intense one, a large school or a medium one, what kind of weather, whether sports matter a lot, etc, etc.</p>

11

<p>I doubt the sciences at W&M are more intense than they are at Wisconsin. They attract many of the best students to UW for that very reason. Many offer two tracks–one for those looking for a terminal degree and the other for those planning on grad school in the science. If you want a less intense major there are others to choose from-comm arts, social sciences, etc. </p>

<p><a href=“https://www.biochem.wisc.edu/undergraduate_program/degree_requirement.aspx”>https://www.biochem.wisc.edu/undergraduate_program/degree_requirement.aspx&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p><a href=“https://www.biochem.wisc.edu/undergraduate_program/meet_undergrads.aspx”>https://www.biochem.wisc.edu/undergraduate_program/meet_undergrads.aspx&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p><a href=“http://chem.wisc.edu/deptfiles/UndergradChemMajor/ChemCurricGuide-Fall%202013.pdf”>http://chem.wisc.edu/deptfiles/UndergradChemMajor/ChemCurricGuide-Fall%202013.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

12

<p>I am a Gopher and have no love for Wisconsin (despite being home to my beloved Packers). That being said, Wisconsin has a top flight university and William and Mary is a shadow of Wisconsin, especially in the sciences. Go to UWisc for undergrad and go to Wm and Mary for law school.</p>

<p>I cannot even believe this “UWisconsin is great, but W&M is better.” was said without ‘sarcasm’. </p>

<p>Weather is better, sure. </p>