Williams v Swathmore v Amherst

Colleges and Universities A-Z Williams College
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<p>There are always going to be students who have BOTH negative and positive experiences at ANY college or university. NO school is the ‘be all’ or ‘end all’ for EVERY student. </p>

<p>@ ARobot I am sorry you had such negative experiences at Williams, but what did you attempt to do to improve some of the situations you faced?</p>

<p>I am unable to respond to everything ARobot highlighted but many of the negative experiences you stated have been absolute POSITIVES for my daughter. The support and opportunities she has had at Williams for the past two years have been amazing. Her experiences have been exactly the OPPOSITE of what you encountered, which can happen at any school.</p>

<p>Hopefully, parents and their children will be diligent when researching schools and making those final college decisions, that goes way beyond reading comments on a college forum.</p>

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<p>I wish to add some additional information to my post.</p>

<p>I agree that bad experiences can happen everywhere. However, good organizations need to be able to deal with the bad experiences. What I mean is this: If you deal with an organization and an employee of that organization treats you badly or does something wrong, you do have recourse to address the higher hierarchical levels of the organization to have the situation fixed. One employee does not reflect the image of the organization. What does reflect is how the organization recovers from that bad experience.</p>

<p>So for instance, a good manufacturer will fix/replace your product if the quality is bad. A good airline will put you in an hotel or assign you to a different flight if there is a problem with your trip. A good restaurant will give you a free meal if there is a problem with your server or dish.</p>

<p>So I understand that a student may end up having a problem with a professor or advisor. What I do not understand is how the college is unable to fix the problem after the fact. In my experience Williams deans and faculty committees are very unresponsive to the students, and very protective of their faculty/admins.</p>

<p>To Blueph, who are somewhat questioning the truth of what I am saying, and also implies that I am trying to attribute the fault of all problems to other faculty: I mentioned on some other posts that eventually I will tell my story with more details, so readers can judge. Right now, I cannot do that because, as most of you know, Williams is a small college, and it is very easy for the “squeaky wheel” to be identified and ostracized. If I wanted to blame Williams for the sake of doing it, I would come up with a fake story right now. But I am not the kind of person. I prefer to wait to be able to tell exactly what I experienced. </p>

<p>One thing that I can say at this point and anyone can verify its veracity is this, which I already mentioned before: The Student Handbook makes it very clear that students have to follow all applicable Federal, State, and Local Laws. On the other hand, a faculty can only be overturned by the College in case of discrimination. Wouldn’t you agree that a faculty should be overturned by the College whenever its actions discriminate against a student <em>or</em> violates any other applicable law or regulation?</p>

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<p>“I prefer to wait to be able to tell exactly what I experienced.”</p>

<p>Ha! Awesome.</p>

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<p>Marvin:</p>

<p>Williams enrolls about 550 students per year. In such a small environment, it is very easy to be red tagged/blackballed. But perhaps you will say that this <em>also</em> does not make sense to you.</p>

<p>Incidentally, Marvin, can you share your opinion about this: The Student Handbook makes it very clear that students have to follow all applicable Federal, State, and Local Laws. On the other hand, a faculty can only be overturned by the College in case of discrimination. Wouldn’t you agree that a faculty should be overturned by the College whenever its actions discriminate against a student <em>or</em> violates any other applicable law or regulation?</p>

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<p>Since you appear to have misunderstood, my mirth is in reaction to your simultaneously claiming you prefer to wait until you can tell “exactly what [you] experienced” while doing the precise opposite (ceaselessly referencing vague allegations and unspecified grievances).</p>

<p>Your feeling of grievance is eminently clear. What’s not clear is why or how. Your “I’ll tell you later” may not quite rub up against Joe McCarthy’s “I have here in my hand a list,” but it’s within arm’s reach.</p>

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<p>Hi! I am an international student wishing to study Creative Writing (which I know I might have to do within an English major). My college counselor strongly suggested me to apply to top Liberal Arts Colleges including Amherst, Dartmouth, Middlebury etc… </p>

<p>I might be able to visit Amherst, Dartmouth & Williams during the summer but I am aware it might not be the best time to have a real sense of what the schools are really like. </p>

<p>I come from a Latin American country but study at an American School where 90% of my classes are taught in English. I have traveled several times to the US in the past, and have even taken summer courses (last year at BU and this year I am going to Colorado College). I have a good record, did quite well on my first SAT, and hope to improve my score in October. I am on the top 10% of my class, I am an Equestrian Athlete, and I am also very much involved in Community Service. </p>

<p>I have no trouble with expressing myself and understanding English, which is why I want to pursue it as a Major, but I have to wonder what these schools are like for International students? Where would I have a better experience (if I were accepted, of course!) ?</p>

<p>Any information worth taking into account?
Any suggestions? Comments? </p>

<p>I would really appreciate your input before applying, because I will only be able to visit two or three schools so I rely on Internet Forums for feedback.</p>

<p>Thanks!</p>

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<p>Hi Offf2College! </p>

<p>I applied and was accepted to all the top 10 LACs, so I know about the process. All these schools are great institutions where, if accepted, you will undoubtedly receive an awesome education! After visiting the schools, you definitely come to recognize certain characteristics associated with the student bodies, but honestly, I believe the LACs are so diverse that anyone would find their own niche. </p>

<p>Nevertheless, here are my observations:</p>

<p>Amherst: Beautiful campus with friendly people! The college is situated in a quaint town that has nice shops and restaurants. It is part of the 5 college consortium, which many people seem to enjoy! Personally, the consortium did not really appeal to me because I found it unsettling that students from the other four schools would show up at Amherst’s parties and cause a raucous. However, this is just a social aspect, but academically, I’m sure the consortium offers many benefits! </p>

<p>Williams: I personally liked Williams more than Amherst! The town (basically Spring Street) did not have as many things and Amherst, but it did have a movie theater that plays independent films, as well as some restaurants. The students were pretty similar to those of Amherst, although I felt that they were a little more laidback. It has three dining halls (I believe?) and the food was delicious! </p>

<p>Swarthmore: These students will change the world. The intellectual atmosphere at this school is overwhelming (in a good way!) and it has a strong foundation centered on civic and social responsibility, which I found pretty cool. It is also just outside Philadelphia so that is a plus. </p>

<p>Dartmouth: Obviously it is an Ivy and not technically and LAC, but because it is overwhelmingly populated by undergrads, it offers the same close knit atmosphere of the LACs. Dartmouth students study hard and party harder. When I visited, I loved how inclusive the community was and its proximity to both NYC and Boston. </p>

<p>You could major in English at any one of these schools, but I would recommend that you also look at Vassar, which has a fantastic english department!</p>

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<p>^^^Dartmouth is “proximate” to New York City only in the sense that they are both in the northeastern part of the United States. When I visited many years ago, they kept referring to Yale as “that school way down there in Connecticut.” It’s a four hour drive to New York or Boston.</p>

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<p>Very true circuitrider! However, Dartmouth is just under 2 hours from Boston, and 3 hours from New York if you take the Dartmouth Coach, which has daily buses to and from both cities primarily for Dartmouth students at little cost. I guess it depends what one considers “proximal,” but I think of them as relatively close in distance.</p>

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<p>that ARobot’s grievance has now been boiled down to a repeated nonsensical question about whether Williams faculty should have to follow all local, state, and federal laws. Yes, they must follow all such laws, and of course they must do so regardless of whether Williams says they have to. Guess what: Williams does not some magical power to absolve faculty of illegal conduct. If you believe that Williams or its faculty has acted in some sort of illegal fashion, I suggest you report that purportedly illegal conduct to state or local authorities, who, not Williams, have the power to investigate violations of law. Beyond that, I doubt you are an expert in labor or employment law, which I’m sure is the foundation of whatever policies Williams has in place regarding its employees, including its faculty members. </p>

<p>As it stands, though, beyond that, no one can answer your apparently rhetorical question without any context whatsoever regarding what you are talking about. When you are prepared to actually offer some level of detail, then you have a right to expect people to engage with you. It’s impossible to rebut vague, unsubstantiated, impossible-to-understand allegations without some sort of factual context. If you can’t provide that, then don’t expect anyone to take your claims seriously. Otherwise, this is a useless and exercise and you come off sounding like someone with a big grudge who was in no way treated improperly but wants to cast serious, anonymous allegations of unlawful contact, without any information whatsoever to back that up. Doesn’t exactly make it seem like whatever happened to you was in any way unjustified, since you aren’t even providing anyone an opportunity to respond in any serious way.</p>

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<p>[Dartmouth</a> Coach: Schedules to Boston South Station, Logan Airport, and New York City](<a href=“http://www.dartmouthcoach.com/index.php/schedules.html]Dartmouth”>Upper Valley < > Boston/Logan Airport | Dartmouth Coach)</p>

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<p>Marvin and Ephman:</p>

<p>Some of my comments about harsh academic environment and bad advising are not experiences of just one person. This is something that Marvin seems to want to imply. As if I was the only one seeing this problem. However, as this thread demonstrates:</p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/williams-college/1490983-hard-decisions-what-do-you-think.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/williams-college/1490983-hard-decisions-what-do-you-think.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>And these posts from The Williams Record demonstrate:</p>

<p>[Effortful</a> imperfection ? The Williams Record](<a href=“http://williamsrecord.com/2010/04/14/effortful-imperfection/]Effortful”>http://williamsrecord.com/2010/04/14/effortful-imperfection/)</p>

<p>[I?m&lt;/a&gt; not fine either ? The Williams Record](<a href=“http://williamsrecord.com/2011/03/03/im-not-fine-either/]I?m”>http://williamsrecord.com/2011/03/03/im-not-fine-either/)</p>

<p>Other folks also had bad experiences with the harsh academic environment at Williams.</p>

<p>Another funny thing on this is that I contacted one Williams admin and talked about academic issues. She mentioned that other students were “in a worse situation”. As if this would make me feel better for being in a less spicy pickle. You know what, it does not make me feel better. It reveals a problem with your school, Ms. admin. </p>

<p>Regarding laws and regulations, if you tell police that a faculty disrespected one or some of the higher education laws, they would not do anything. You know that. As they say, they have bigger fish to fry. What is surprising to me on this issue is that the Dean’s Office would not do anything about this. As I mentioned here, in my experience the Dean’s office seemed to be more interested in protecting the school than finding a conciliatory solution that ameliorates the situation for the student.</p>

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<p>Just to add a bit to Ephman:</p>

<p>Ephman, given your profile name and the number of posts promoting Williams, it seems you do have strong connections with the college. I will give you a suggestion. Next time you interact with someone higher up at Williams, why don’t you pass along the message. Anything that can open their eyes a little bit that anti-discrimination is not the only thing that faculty/admins should be concerned will go a long way to improve the situation for future students. There is a lot of things that people should “wise up”, including contractual laws and higher education laws.</p>

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<p>This is truly becoming absurd, irrelevant, off-track. Williams is a wonderful school, a place that takes higher learning seriously. I have good friends on the faculty, many of whom were here when I graduated many years ago and they have empathy for their students and love to take the time to get to know them. If someone does have an ax to grind at least clearly articulate what the issue is so that others can understand the problem…</p>

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<p>Finnsdad:</p>

<p>I will send you a PM.</p>

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<p>To other readers:</p>

<p>I agree with Findad that this thread started going to a bad direction. In any event, and for whatever it is worth in an anonymous thread, I stand by what I wrote.</p>

<p>Just for public clarification, my major dissatisfaction with Williams can be summarized in two issues:</p>

<p>(1). The academic environment, which is more harsh than it needs to be, and much less supportive than expected for a top LAC. Although it is true that there are very supportive faculty at Williams, who equate top-school = nurturing environment, it is also true that quite a few faculty and admins seem to be proud of the harsh environment there and who equate top-school = academic boot camp environment.</p>

<p>(2). Williams pays a lot of attention to anti-discrimination laws and practices, and this is laudable. However, as an institution of higher education, Williams has to pay attention to all applicable laws. In my experience, Williams does not have a mechanism so that faculty/personnel in steering positions are fully informed about those laws. This may be understandable because they are not all lawyers and one cannot expect people to be informed of all laws all the time. However, what is <em>not</em> understandable is when someones clearly points to a regulation and provides references to it in writing, and still Williams does not have an efficient mechanism to consider this new information to make and review decisions. </p>

<p>Signing off of this thread,</p>

<p>ARobot</p>

<p>Ps: Regarding item (2), It appears to me (and this is my personal experience, I admit) that Williams seems to be unwilling to consider cogent arguments when they would lead to a decision that breaks with the established way of doing things, i.e., flexing item (1). Maybe I am getting to much inspiration from my screen name and Asimov’s Three Laws: in other words (with the exception of anti-discrimination), the Second Law of Williams has a clause to avert conflict with the First Law of Williams.</p>

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<p>First of all, I am in no way, shape or form formally affiliated with Williams, and the fact that you assume that anyone who defends the school against your accusations must be so is, in my view, telling. I am glad that you are apparently done with your repetitive trolling attacks, leveled on multiple threads which have nothing to do with the topic you are raising. My biggest problem with your statements is still unresolved. Saying in a public forum, over and over, that faculty and administrators are breaking the law, without providing any substantiation or even any detailed explanation, is totally unfair and, frankly, doesn’t even provide any basis for any sort of intelligent discussion – you’ve made your views abundantly clear, but until you are willing to substantiate your accusations, they remain utterly without value. Neither the school, nor anyone else, has a real opportunity to respond. Anonymous, vague, and unsubstantiated allegations of illegal conduct such as yours should be granted zero credence, and nothing you’ve said here has bolstered either your credibility, or the credibility of what you have claimed.</p>

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<p>Amherst vs. Swarthmore vs Dartmouth vs Williams vs ( Any other LAC- Haverford or Pomona or Grinell,etc)
Could someone please rate Chemistry majors in all these colleges?</p>