Williams Vs Dartmouth

Colleges and Universities A-Z Williams College
1

<p>Another versus posting. :)</p>

<p>I like LACs, basically.
And I heard that Dartmouth's emphasises the liberal arts education,
although, in fact, it is NOT a liberal arts college like Amhest or Williams.</p>

<h1>1) So, my question is, is there such thing as Williams/Amherst being</h1>

<p>more "LACy" than Dartmouth?
Or would I be almost equally satisfied with the liberal arts education they offer?</p>

<h1>2) My second question is that I am well aware that Dartmouth has very strong connection in the field of business, but my planned carrer is law-based and</h1>

<p>I heard that more Williams graduate get accepted by Top Law schools.
So, although it might sound a little ridiculuous, is it recommended to go to Williams
if I want to pursue law-professional jobs?</p>

2

<p>These are both excellent schools that will get you where you want to go.</p>

<p>Main differences: D1 vs D3 sports, quarter system vs. semester system, and frats vs. no frats.</p>

<p>These are pretty significant differences, so you should really think about which you prefer. The semester issue is the most definitive IMO.</p>

<p>Unless you are talking about applying ED you can just apply and see how the cards fall before you make yourself crazy making this decision.</p>

3

<p>Have a child at Williams and the unofficial extra child that grew up in my house (and my child at their house, except theirs is more like Versailles), is at Dartmouth. They both think that they are exactly where they should be and have a great mutual respect for the other school. The differences are simply that, different ways of doing things, both accomplishing the mission of providing a great education and enriching experiences. Having 4 lawyers in the family and the child at Williams who is thinking law, IMO you can not go wrong at either school. You are talking about 2 of the 10 best schools in the country. On the sports side Dartmouth and Williams play at about the same level regardless of division. A D1 Ivy (semi D1? due to the admission standards) that doesn't focus on sports, but plays well, and a D3 school that has endless Directors cups. Dartmouth has Tuck if you are thinking business at all, great school.</p>

4

<p>
[quote]
Main differences: D1 vs D3 sports, quarter system vs. semester system, and frats vs. no frats.

[/quote]
Agreed. Also larger (D) vs. smaller (W) size of school/community. These are the main differences you should consider -- not law school placement rates.</p>

<p>Considered purely as a LAC, Williams does have some advantages. Williams is wealthier (on an endowment-per-student basis) and has lower operating expenses (no graduate or professional schools), so has more $$ for undergraduate education. For example, the 2008 US News indicates that Williams has a better student/faculty ratio, fewer classes > 50, and more classes < 20. Williams is famous for capping tutorials at an enrollment of two. </p>

<p>On the other hand, Dartmouth may have advantages that are not captured in the US News rankings, like greater name recognition, broader course offerings (e.g. engineering), more active social scene, or Division I sports.</p>

<p>Overall, I would agree that these are two of the Top 10 places in the US to get an undergraduate liberal arts education.</p>

5

<p>Both are outstanding schools with equal representation (per capita) at top law schools. Both will take you wherever you want to go. I would visit both to see which one fits you better.</p>

6

<p>read Julie/ superstar part where she made choice in between in the book
"The Overachievers"</p>

7

<p>I guess it depends on how you want to define "being LACy". I'd define it as being a small liberal arts college focused primarily on undergraduate education. </p>

<p>Having spent a fair amount of time at Dartmouth and the three New England LACs that I am familar w/ (Midd, Amherst, Williams), I think Dartmouth has a bigger feel to it than Amherst/Williams and is thus less "LACy" feeling. Probably a function of there being more undergraduates at Dartmouth and the presence of engineering, business and medical schools. I'm not saying this is a plus or minus particularly. </p>

<p>As to which place would provide a better undergraduate education, Dartmouth has been criticized for slipping standards in that area. Fairly or not I can't say. I haven't read anything like that about Williams or Amherst. </p>

<p>I certainly wouldn't pick one over the other on the basis of law school placement. That will have more to do with individual performance than the particular school. </p>

<p>Finally, not that it matters, but Dartmouth's sports teams play at a higher level than do the Williams teams.</p>

8

<p>
[quote]
As to which place would provide a better undergraduate education, Dartmouth has been criticized for slipping standards in that area. Fairly or not I can't say.

[/quote]
The Dartmouth administration has a lot of balls to juggle, including the med school, the business school, the engineering school, and the graduate programs in arts and sciences, as well as the undergraduate liberal arts program. There have been debates in the Dartmouth community about the most appropriate allocation of resources between these programs, especially given that Dartmouth (while a wealthy school by most standards), is not as well endowed as the top LACs and top Ivies with which it competes.</p>

<p>I wouldn't be surprised if similar debates arise in the future at Middlebury, which is now subsidizing the Monterey Institute of International Studies, a relatively large (850 students) graduate school in California. Again, Middlebury is a wealthy school by most standards, but is not as well endowed as top LACs or top Ivies.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I haven't read anything like that about Williams or Amherst.

[/quote]
It's easier to juggle when you only have one ball to watch.</p>

9

<p>I actually really disagree with this. Dartmouth's focus on the undergrad has actually gotten even better (and it was already strong) over the last 10 years. The "hearsay" you speak about is regarding a group of conservatives almost "Rove-ian" smear campaign against the college in an attempt to get votes. Its simply not true.</p>

<p>Dartmouth is inordinately undergrad focused, almost 80% of the student body are undergrads, there are no TAs, etc. In some ways you get the benefits of a university (like a great hospital, or a business school with great speakers) while in a very undergrad focused environment. Also Dartmouth's per student endowment of almost 700K is MUCH MUCH higher than places like Penn and Columbia (3 times as much), and very close to that of Williams (in the 800K range).</p>

10

<p>
[quote]
Dartmouth is inordinately undergrad focused, almost 80% of the student body are undergrads,

[/quote]
Actually 71.2%, based on the 2007-08 Dartmouth Common Data Set. But yes, D is more undergrad focused than most other universities</p>

<p>
[quote]
there are no TAs

[/quote]
Yes, there [url=<a href="http://thedartmouth.com/2004/05/07/news/dartmouths/%5Dare%5B/url"&gt;http://thedartmouth.com/2004/05/07/news/dartmouths/]are[/url&lt;/a&gt;]. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Also Dartmouth's per student endowment of almost 700K is MUCH MUCH higher than places like Penn and Columbia (3 times as much)

[/quote]
True. My reference to "top Ivies" meant Harvard, Yale, and Princeton. </p>

<p>
[quote]
and very close to that of Williams (in the 800K range)

[/quote]
Endowment figures are moving targets. The most widely referenced source is the annual list published by the National Association of College and University Business Officers (NACUBO). The most recent NACUBO list, for [url=<a href="http://www.nacubo.org/Images/All%20Institutions%20Listed%20by%20FY%202007%20Market%20Value%20of%20Endowment%20Assets_2007%20NES.pdf%5D2007%5B/url"&gt;http://www.nacubo.org/Images/All%20Institutions%20Listed%20by%20FY%202007%20Market%20Value%20of%20Endowment%20Assets_2007%20NES.pdf]2007[/url&lt;/a&gt;], shows endowments of $3.76 billion for Dartmouth and $1.89 billion for Williams. </p>

<p>The 2007-08 Common Data Sets indicate total enrollments (including grad students) of 5,849 for D and 2,046 for W. Based on the endowment figures above, the resulting endowments per student are $924,000 for W and $643,000 for D. And realistically, the difference is probably more significant than that, because D's base expenses per student are probably higher. D has to support medical students, engineering students, PhD candidates, etc., and they cost more to support than the average liberal arts undergrad.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Dartmouth is inordinately undergrad focused...In some ways you get the benefits of a university (like a great hospital, or a business school with great speakers) while in a very undergrad focused environment

[/quote]

As I stated above, Dartmouth is one of the top places in the country to get a liberal arts education. Williams has some advantages, Dartmouth has others.</p>

11

<p>Corbett, there aren't TAs (look it up). The only TAs are in some basic math classes. Also the Dartmouth grad schools have their own endowments, so you have to split the endowment among undergrads.</p>

12

<p>
[quote]
there aren't TAs (look it up). The only TAs are in some basic math classes.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Dartmouth, to its credit, does not rely on TAs as heavily as most other universities. But current Dartmouth web pages certainly suggest that they occur more widely than "some basic math classes" ...</p>

<p>Writing</a> classes: "The teaching assistant is an essential component of Writing 2-3. Faculty and students concur that the program would not be fully successful without this special support."</p>

<p>Biology:</a> "An essential element of graduate education at Dartmouth is the experience gained in teaching. Therefore, at least one term of teaching is required of all Ph.D. students."</p>

<p>Chemistry:</a> "At the first meeting you will be assigned to a Teaching Assistant who will supervise your lab work, grade your data sheets and formal reports, examine your notebooks weekly, and grade prelab problems and quizzes."</p>

<p>Graduate</a> Teaching Awards: "The Filene Teaching Award will be awarded annually to the graduate teaching assistant who best exemplifies the qualities of a college educator...Instruction activities may take place in laboratories, discussion groups, or other similar forums."</p>

13

<p>
[quote]
Also the Dartmouth grad schools have their own endowments, so you have to split the endowment among undergrads.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Dartmouth [url=<a href="http://www.dartmouth.edu/%7Eask/categories/administration/08.html%5Dsays%5B/url"&gt;http://www.dartmouth.edu/%7Eask/categories/administration/08.html]says[/url&lt;/a&gt;] that its total endowment was $3.76 billion on 06/30/07, which is the same value I posted above. Furthermore: "of the total value of the endowment, about 22% is restricted to the professional schools." So the $3.76 billion figure includes the professional school endowments.</p>

<p>If we take out 22% as restricted to the professional schools, it leaves a remainder of $2.93 billion. The remainder is used to support undergraduate education, and also to support shared facilities used by the whole Dartmouth community. </p>

<p>But let's generously assume that 100% of the remainder (or 78% of the total) is used exclusively to support undergraduate education. With 4,164 undergrads (as per the latest CDS), we get an endowment per student of $704,000. This is a big number...but it is still smaller than the numbers for top LACs (Amherst, Swarthmore, Williams) or top Ivies (Harvard, Yale, Princeton).</p>

14

<p>You seem to have a wide variety of knowledge, Corbett..
Those types of information were precisely what I wanted to know.</p>

<p>And "ncram65", you were right in defining "LACy" as small liberal arts college
focused primarily on undergraduate education.
Maybe I should've clarified that from the beginning. (I assumed people would know)</p>

<p>I really appreciate it.</p>

<p>Any other opinions?</p>