Williams vs Duke vs Rice vs U Chicago vs NU vs Yale a bunch more

College Search & Selection
1

<p>It seems like my top 5 college list changes everyday. Im really having trouble deciding which school is best for me. Right now, I'm considering Penn, Williams, Amherst, MIT, NU, Rice, Wash U in St. Louis, Duke, U Chicago, Princeton, and just about any other school. Any insight would be great!!! As for what I want in a college:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Quirky, intellectual students - I want the classrooms to be teeming with students that are fully engaged and passionate about learning (NOT just getting As). </p></li>
<li><p>Plenty of Opportunities for Undergraduate Research - Especially Medical Research and ESPECIALLY NEUROSCIENCE research!!! I plan on going to Med School and becoming a Medical Missionary. I'd really love to go to a school that's strong in Rural Medicine.</p></li>
<li><p>SMALL CLASS SIZES!!!!! - Preferably, most classes under 25 students. This is very, very important. Zero to few classes with more than 50 students</p></li>
<li><p>Affordable Study Abroad Program</p></li>
<li><p>Strong Athletic Program AND strong Visual Arts Program</p></li>
<li><p>Financial Aid!!!! - My parents won't support me in college and Im not willing to go into more than $5,000 in debt.</p></li>
<li><p>Local church and a program like Campus Crusades, InterVarsity, etc.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>Which School seems best for me?? Thank you!</p>

2

<p>Based on #1, I’d say UChicago, Rice, and MIT would be good fits. Based on #2, I’d say all your listed schools are good fits. Based on #3, I’d think an LAC like Williams or Amherst would be a good fit. No idea about #4. Based on #5a (athletic program), I’d say an LAC is NOT a good fit, while Duke and Northwestern are the best fits. No idea about strong Visual Arts program, but I think Yale is solid. Based on #6, I’d ask you is it that your parents cannot afford to pay much for you college education or they are just unwilling to? That’s a big difference. Colleges don’t care if your parents simply don’t “want” to pay if they have the resources to do so. The schools with the best financial aid on your list are Yale and MIT. But if it’s simply that your parents don’t want to pay, then you’d need to choose a school where you can get merit aid or offers cheap tuition. I think all would work for #7.</p>

<p>Basically, your list is certainly reasonable but different schools seem like better fits depending on what criteria is most important. I’d recommend visiting as many schools as you can and going with your gut. They’re all great for pre-med and I don’t see any huge advantages, but you might want to ask what the pre-med advising is like for each institution. After visiting/talking/researching more you should be able to eliminate a few from your list. Then simply apply to remaining schools RD and see if you get in and what financial aid they offer you. They’re all highly competitive schools that are difficult to get into, so you may have fewer choices at that point and then can compare financial aid packages.</p>

<p>Good luck.</p>

3

<p>If a strong athletic program is important to you then Duke is probably the best bet. I also hear that its medical programs are top notch. However you won’t find nearly as many “quirky” students there as you will at, say, UChicago.</p>

4

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<p>Unless your parents’ income is less than $60,000 with few or no assets, none of these schools is remotely in your future. If you have exceptional stats, you MIGHT qualify for full ride scholarships at someplace like Michigan State or a middlin’ LAC. Otherwise, how’s the community college in your neighborhood?</p>

5

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<p>Williams and Amherst both have a very strong athletic culture with wide student body participation. They both have very successful athletic programs and truly embrace the student/athlete with facilities and schedules that allow a lot of students to play. You would only be better served athletically at a Division 1 school if you are either a recruited athlete or confidant enough in your abilities as a walk-on.</p>

<p>However, neither is “quirky” (consider Wesleyan, Swarthmore) but both intellectually engaging.</p>

6

<p>Which school offers the strongest Neuroscience program? (i.e. Undergrad Research Opportunities, facility, etc.)</p>

7

<p>and another question: I’ve been considering BS/MD programs. Is it advisable to do so? What are pros/cons of such programs? I feel like after spending 4 yrs at a university for my undergrad, it be a much easier transistion to med school (as Id know the profs, what the school really has to offer, etc.) But I also worry it would get rather monotonous at the same school for 8 years lol. Any ideas??</p>

8

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</p>

<p>…or interested in watching high profile college sports and participating in the student culture that surrounds big-time football and basketball programs. Or interested in competitive but less time intensive club sports. I could have played at a weak DI or D3 for my sport, but preferred the club sports route (and couldn’t make the varsity at the school I was at). Practices twice a week and competing against numerous other universities on the weekend was more appealing to me (so I could focus on academics and also have a social life) than the time required to be a varsity athlete.</p>

9

<p>Well, good luck in your search! If you want a well-rounded education, especially if you want to go to medical school, take a look at What Will They Learn.com to compare the core curriculum requirements of the schools. Make sure you’re studying science and not basket weaving so to speak. <a href=“http://whatwilltheylearn.com/schools/compare[/url]”>http://whatwilltheylearn.com/schools/compare&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

10

<p>I think you would really like Dartmouth. It has everything you describe, and is the mecca of Study Abroad, small classes, and is known for having the kind of undergrad focus you seem to be looking for. I’m surprised to not see it on your list.</p>

11

<p>shebalee, Tackle the financial part first. Many of the colleges on your list only offer NEED based aid. That means that they determine how much you need based on your family’s income/assets then make up all or some of the difference. </p>

<p>Ask your parents to use an on-line calculator to determine how much need based aid you may be eligible for. If that works, proceed. If not you’ll have to eliminate Williams, Yale, Penn, Amherst and some of the others and concentrate on schools that offer MERIT aid.</p>

<p>Do this first, before you fall in love with any college.</p>

12

<p>thanks momrath, thats probably the best advice. I know U Chicago offers Merit aid. What other great schools offer it? Or, what are some of the best value schools?? If I can’t afford any of my favorite schools, I’ve already been guaranteed a full ride to about any of my state’s public and private schools …with University of Florida being my first choice and University of Miami second. Of course, Id so much rather go to an elite university, but for the sake of finances, would it be wiser to just go to UF? Also, I can’t imagine that, if I was accepted to my dream school, it would be too diffucult to work something out with financial aid officers. Is negotiating/appealing for more money realistic? thanks</p>

13

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<p>Try harder to imagine it. </p>

<p>Here’s a list of merit aid percentages at some more or less selective schools:
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/696637-merit-aid-percentage-common-data-set-6.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/696637-merit-aid-percentage-common-data-set-6.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

14

<p>shabalee, If you qualify for NEED based aid, then yes you may be able to negotiate for a bit more at a school that gives need based aid. However, you will not get MERIT aid at a school that doesn’t give merit aid, no matter how much you need it or want it. It’s up to you to know the difference.</p>

<p>And in today’s economy merit aid is becoming an endangered species. The pot is shrinking.</p>

<p>No matter how qualified you are, many of the schools on your list aren’t going to work unless you qualify for need based aid. So, do you? Answer that question first, then come back for a financially safe strategy.</p>

<p>It may turn out that your State schools are the best value, but before you eliminate or fixate, find out what you’re eligible for in need.</p>

15

<p>I suggest visiting as many of them as possible. I attended Rice before transferring to Duke, and even though they seem similar on paper, they are quite different (i.e. Rice has no fraternities/sororities, Duke does, which creates a different vibe on both campuses). I suggest you apply all of them (and talk to current students, eat at the cafeterias, sit in on classes, talk to professors, etc. in order to get an accurate picture of life at each university instead of the marketing given by the admissions office) and then decide when you get the offers. In terms of your criteria, I can tell you how Duke and Rice fits:</p>

<ol>
<li>Quirky, intellectual students - I want the classrooms to be teeming with students that are fully engaged and passionate about learning (NOT just getting As). </li>
</ol>

<p>Although you can find intellectual students at Duke, Rice has a more intellectual atmosphere overall. At a risk of overgeneralizing, I also feel that Rice students tend to be more interested in learning for learning’s sake, but premeds at both universities tend to care mainly about their grades. You’ll find your fair share of partying at both. However, I think the residential college system greatly enriches student life at Rice.</p>

<ol>
<li>Plenty of Opportunities for Undergraduate Research - Especially Medical Research and ESPECIALLY NEUROSCIENCE research!!! I plan on going to Med School and becoming a Medical Missionary. I’d really love to go to a school that’s strong in Rural Medicine. </li>
</ol>

<p>Rice and Duke will both offer plenty of undergrad research opportunities, with Rice being right next door to the world’s largest medical center (Texas Medical Center… google it. It includes Baylor Med, Texas Children’s, MD Anderson, Memorial Hermann (where Gabby Giffords is getting treated), and others. At Duke, you’ll have opportunities at Duke Medical Center. </p>

<p>Rice does not offer a neuroscience major, but they do offer a cognitive science major. Plus, there are opportunities to take a few neuroscience classes and do neuroscience research at Baylor Medical School, which is about a 5-10 min walk from campus.</p>

<p>Duke has a neuroscience major that’s quite popular with undergrads. Lots of research opportunities as well in this major.</p>

<ol>
<li>SMALL CLASS SIZES!!! - Preferably, most classes under 25 students. This is very, very important. Zero to few classes with more than 50 students</li>
</ol>

<p>Introductory science classes will be quite large at both Rice and Duke since there are a lot of premeds at both. My Gen Chem class at Rice was about 140 students (class at Duke can be up to 250). My Organic Chemistry class at Duke was about 170 students (about same size as Rice, if not slightly smaller). Introductory Biology at Rice is approximately 220 students (average of 300 students at Duke). I think Physics is about the same size at both places (maybe around 200 students). Upper-level classes will tend to be 50 students or less.</p>

<ol>
<li>Affordable Study Abroad Program</li>
</ol>

<p>Financial aid at both Duke and Rice will go towards study abroad programs that are approved by the university. At Duke, need-based aid can be applied toward two summer sessions, including a summer trip abroad. Check out Rice’s and Duke’s study abroad websites:
Rice:[Rice</a> Abroad](<a href=“http://abroad.rice.edu/]Rice”>http://abroad.rice.edu/)
Duke:[Duke</a> Study Abroad : Home](<a href=“http://studyabroad.duke.edu/]Duke”>http://studyabroad.duke.edu/)</p>

<ol>
<li>Strong Athletic Program AND strong Visual Arts Program</li>
</ol>

<p>Both Rice and Duke are D1 schools. Rice has a strong baseball team, whereas Duke has a strong basketball team. Take your pick. Both are terrible at football.</p>

<p>I would say Duke has a slightly stronger Visual Arts department. I don’t know much about Rice’s, but I know Duke is recently trying to expand its strengths in the arts. Here’s their page: [Visual</a> Arts | Duke University Arts](<a href=“http://arts.duke.edu/visual_arts]Visual”>http://arts.duke.edu/visual_arts). LACs may be better for visual arts than national research universities like Duke and Rice.</p>

<ol>
<li>Financial Aid!!! - My parents won’t support me in college and Im not willing to go into more than $5,000 in debt.</li>
</ol>

<p>Both offer decent need-based aid. Duke offers merit scholarships to 8% of its incoming freshman class, whereas Rice offers merit scholarships to 20-30% of its incoming freshman class.</p>

<ol>
<li>Local church and a program like Campus Crusades, InterVarsity, etc.</li>
</ol>

<p>Both Rice and Duke have active chapters.</p>

<p>Which School seems best for me?? Thank you!
This is up to you to decide. In terms of Rice and Duke, I suggest you apply to both! Good luck! Feel free to PM me if you have questions about Rice or Duke.</p>

16

<p>Rice and Wash U in St. Louis do not deserve to be in considered with the other schools you are looking at. Drop those two from consideration. They are not nearly as reputable, prestigious or academically elite as the other schools you are considering.</p>

17

<p>^ my nominee for most clueless post of the week!</p>

18

<p>Yes, WUSTL is a peer of Princeton. lol.</p>

19

<p>Williams is about as good a fit as you could ask for given your criteria. Breaking it down:</p>

<p>It seems like my top 5 college list changes everyday. Im really having trouble deciding which school is best for me. Right now, I’m considering Penn, Williams, Amherst, MIT, NU, Rice, Wash U in St. Louis, Duke, U Chicago, Princeton, and just about any other school. Any insight would be great!!! As for what I want in a college:</p>

<ol>
<li>Quirky, intellectual students - I want the classrooms to be teeming with students that are fully engaged and passionate about learning (NOT just getting As). </li>
</ol>

<p>[in this group, Williams is probably behind UChicago, but at least equal to, or ahead of, the rest … most kids are definitely engaged in the classroom experience – that is kind of the point of choosing a small liberal arts school, and Williams has the most engaging undergraduate experience in the country available with its Oxford-style tutorial program … that being said, the student body isn’t as overtly / outwardly intellectual as a place like UChicago, but students are more quirky than they initially appear I’d say. None of the schools on this list, other than UChicago, have uber-quirky student bodies. I am surprised Swarthmore is not on your list – it probably should be, as it fits all of your criteria but for athletics]</p>

<ol>
<li>Plenty of Opportunities for Undergraduate Research - Especially Medical Research and ESPECIALLY NEUROSCIENCE research!!! I plan on going to Med School and becoming a Medical Missionary. I’d really love to go to a school that’s strong in Rural Medicine.</li>
</ol>

<p>[Williams EASILY comes out on top here. Admissions</a> – Williams College| Science and Mathematics Research](<a href=“http://admission.williams.edu/bigpicture/difference/research]]Admissions”>http://admission.williams.edu/bigpicture/difference/research)</p>

<ol>
<li>SMALL CLASS SIZES!!! - Preferably, most classes under 25 students. This is very, very important. Zero to few classes with more than 50 students</li>
</ol>

<p>[Williams has a 7:1 faculty:student ratio, which is extremely low for a liberal arts school where all faculty are teaching undergrads, and a huge percentage of classes are under 25 students]</p>

<ol>
<li>Affordable Study Abroad Program</li>
</ol>

<p>[You receive the same fin aid for study abroad as you do for on-campus study]</p>

<ol>
<li>Strong Athletic Program AND strong Visual Arts Program</li>
</ol>

<p>[Williams has a great athletics culture and the best Division III athletics program in the country. Amherst and Wash U. are not far behind in terms of D-3 athletics. Duke is probably the most athletically-oriented of this group, though. Visual arts is very strong at Williams, albeit not as strong as art history. They have an enormous dedicated visual art facility, newly built in 1996, and the arts generally play a big role in campus life. And of course, you have two of the best musueums in the country within 10 minutes of campus, a top-rate college museum on campus, and the best art history program in the country to boot]. </p>

<ol>
<li>Financial Aid!!! - My parents won’t support me in college and Im not willing to go into more than $5,000 in debt.</li>
</ol>

<p>[No merit aid, so this all depends on your level of need. If you have a huge amount of need, though, Williams will enable you to graduate debt free or close to debt free. If your family is more in the upper middle class area, you may be in a tougher boat.]</p>

<ol>
<li>Local church and a program like Campus Crusades, InterVarsity, etc.</li>
</ol>

<p>[This I don’t know about. There is a large chapel on campus, and certainly a number of religious student groups, but it is hardly the most religious student body around, generally speaking].</p>

20

<p>Agree with AnnasDad. Neuroscience research, medical missionary, rural medicine = very confused goals. Pick any good liberal arts school that you can afford given your budget and work out your conflicting goals. A huge chunk of students never make it past the first year of premed based on changing interests or difficulties with the requirements.</p>