<p>I got into both of these schools, Havey Mudd, CMU and Carleton but have narrowed it down to UChicago and Williams because they're the cheapest and I'd save about 25k (across 4 years) by attending one of them as opposed to the others. I want to major in Physics and Mathematics (or Computer Science). I know the math at both schools at both schools is awesome. However I feel like the physics at UChicago is more renowned whereas I'd be able to get more research experience at Williams. I also don't know if I'd be able to handle the workload at UChicago, I'm willing to work hard but I'm starting to doubt my intelligence compared to the other UChicago Physics and Math Majors. At least at Williams I think I'd be able to find help easier if I need it. The environments don't matter too much, I've visited both schools and would be fine with either despite their vast differeces. So which school would offer the better physics education and grad school placement?</p>
<p>UChicago is, academically, a very tough school. I’m fairly certain that the average GPA is much lower at Chicago than at Williams, even though both schools are very tough. At Chicago, as your suspicions suggest, you will be competing against students who are some of the smartest in the country and extremely hard working. That’s not to say students at Williams are not, but each school has its own distinct culture, with Williams students tending to emphasize a well-rounded lifestyle (a lot of the student body is into athletics, hiking, etc.) while Chicago students tend to enjoy the life of the mind. That is not to say each school has some from the other, though. Being an LAC, Williams will allow for a much more personal engagement with professors, while it’s much harder at a large, acclaimed research institution like Chicago. However, both schools will afford you excellent research opportunities, though for your specific interest in Physics, Chicago will have more money funneled into technology that Williams doesn’t have, allowing you more compelling opportunities to do work with a professor. </p>
<p>When comparing these two for your potential majors, I’d say Physics is stronger at Chicago, while the instruction at Williams for Math is far better, though you may not be in a major with as many math geniuses (take that as a good and bad thing). </p>
<p>Because academics are strong at Williams and that you will establish far better connections with professors, you will get better grad school placements out of Williams. I’d suggest perusing their department sites, as many of them list where majors in that department have gone on for their graduate studies. </p>
<p>My opinion would be, if you are keen on going to graduate school, go to Williams. You will not only have an easier time in getting into a top masters or PhD program, but you will have a far better time there, too. The more intimate setting will create bonds that last a lifetime, and the Williams alumni connections is second to none.</p>
<p>According to the Boalt Scale (a while old, but still deserves discussing) creating by Boalt Law School at Berkeley to assess GPA’s of Law School Candidates, Williams is a tougher school than Chicago, second only to Swarthmore.</p>
<p>I don’t think the decision should be made on this basis.</p>
<p>Both will prepare you well for grad school/employment. Both will be challenging.</p>
<p>U of C allowed my friend’s son to retake a course and substitute a new grade (or at least average it with previous, lower grade) whereas Williams will not allow that.</p>
<p>U of C has a more extensive Pass/Fail Option whereas the Guardino initiative at Williams is very limited.</p>
<p>That said, my S had exactly this same choice to make (with Vassar in the mix for some personal reasons) and he chose Williams. His choice was not based on head, but on heart. He found the Purple Valley and the spotted cow more inspiring than Hyde Park and the phoenix, though it was a very tough choice.</p>
<p>I think you can decide where you’d have the best four years.</p>
<p>The academics at both are very challenging and rewarding.</p>
<p>You really have to search your heart and gut. Academically, both Chicago and Williams provide a superb education.</p>
<p>My son also narrowed his selection to Chicago and Williams. He also was and continues to be focused academically on physics and mathematics. </p>
<p>You might consider which of all the schools you applied to you thought fit you best, then consider whether UChicago or Williams is most like that school. The schools you’ve set aside were schools my son initially looked at and decided that they weren’t for him and did not apply to them. Setting them aside had to do with their academic focus, their location, and his perception of campus culture.</p>
<p>You could also speak to faculty members at Chicago or Williams, who attended either or both schools, as undergraduates or graduate students. Departmental websites typically list where faculty obtained their degrees.</p>
<p>Lastly, think of and imagine being in either place for four years. As you do that, think of what you want. Living in Williamstown and being a student at the College is a unique experience. </p>
<p>If you work hard, do well, and develop a productive relationship with an academic mentor, you’ll get into graduate school. Those attributes are what makes a successful grad student. Although it’s you more than the place, you want a place where you’ll be happy and thrive.</p>
<p>Congratulations and Good Luck!</p>
<p>One thing to consider about Chicago is the quarter system. The pace of ten-week quarters can be unforgiving and I found it hard to start a new quarter after spring break. Though I love the city, it can be depressing when the sun doesn’t come out for all of February. Intellectually it is a unique place, but you could go there for grad school and have the best of both worlds! (On a personal note, I didn’t encourage my kids to apply there and they chose Williams).</p>
<p>LOVE both schools–I’m a W alum and a big, big UChi fan–and other than location and quarters, the biggest difference is U Chicago’s Core Curriculum.</p>
<p>You seriously need to consider if the Core is for you. It’s NOT for everyone (something many, many UChi and Columbia students and alums will attest to)!</p>
<p>Have you visited both? If not, there is still time–try to do so. While both are excellent schools–congratulations, BTW–both have very different “feels” to them.</p>
<p>What does your GUT–not your mind–say to you? Follow your gut, you will very rarely be wrong.</p>
<p>I always thought of U of Chicago a great graduate school destination wheras a small LAC like Williams a great undergrad destination. A close relative went to a top LAC and then U of Chicago for physics.</p>
<p>This link might help you. To update it, Williams had another Apker winner, Class of 2010.</p>
<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/williams-college/731550-physics-liberal-arts-colleges.html#post8355750[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/williams-college/731550-physics-liberal-arts-colleges.html#post8355750</a></p>
<p>PM me, if you have more questions about Williams or the physics and math departments.</p>
<p>I went to both! (Wiiliams undergrad; UChicago grad school, and I also taught there). Both were a long time ago. I wasn’t a great fit at Williams - non-athlete, don’t drink, little or no money, etc. - and yes, I did find my niche, and I made it work, but I had to “make it work” - it wasn’t a natural thing. And I know nothing about physics or math. But I also think the purely academic educational quality at Williams is significantly higher than at UChicago. I taught the core, and I’m not a believer. In fact, I’m not a believer in young adults being forced to study anything they don’t choose for themselves. (I don’t believe in Williams’ mickey-mouse distributional requirements either. If they can’t convince students that it is “good for them” to study different things, why should the students be told to do so under duress?) The core also took pressure off the faculty to provide what students really believe they need. But at Williams you will find faculty entirely committed to teaching undergraduates. There is research, but it is clearly in second position - for both faculty and for students. All of the resources of the college are designed for undergraduates - you won’t be competing with graduate students, or research needs of faculty, for those resources. Everything will be geared toward your success, and if you can’t find it there, Williams will help you do so.</p>
<p>(By the way - I disliked the location of both! Williams was far too remote for me, something I didn’t realize until I was there. And cold! And then there was Chicago! There isn’t a good season the entire year, and Hyde Park - at least then - was essentially a walled-off, gentrified enclave.)</p>
<p>I really do believe that most undergrads will get a better education at Williams, but I can’t speak to your math/physics needs (and if languages were an issue, well, that’s a whole 'nother story…)</p>
<p>P.S. Williams has PHYS. ED requirement! Go figure…</p>
<p>mini- I sent you a pm</p>
<p>mini,</p>
<p>I wonder about the effect of “rose-colored glasses” when looking back on our college years. I went to UChicago undergrad and Columbia U for grad school. I TA’d some classes at Columbia and remember being taken aback by the lack of originality and scholarship in the students in the classes. They seemed to be writing at a high school level and I was disappointed, to say the least. </p>
<p>Looking back on the experience, though, I realize that I had been unfairly judging the students from my perspective as a mid-20-something year old who had had years of higher education already under my belt. My memories of college had probably favored my latter years as an upperclassman and of course, by that time, everyone had seemed pretty motivated and accomplished. My opinion now would be that the work produced by a UChicago first year/second year would be indistinguishable from that of a Columbia undergrad.</p>
<p>Lalaland123,</p>
<p>There is no difference between the intelligence/aptitude level of an 18 yr old entering Williams or Chicago. You will work hard at both schools and get similar grades.The core classes at Chicago can be a bit hit or miss, but that is true of any undergrad class anywhere. To its credit, most Chicago core classes are capped at 19 students and the professors are readily available.</p>
<p>You will probably get more personal attention at Williams from profs. On the other hand, you will have access to a broader selection of profs doing world class research at Chicago. They will also go out of their way to help and work with you, but as Mini points out, UChicago is not an LAC. I personally feel that Chicago strikes an excellent balance between the two but others may disagree,</p>
<p>Go with fit and whichever place you feel more comfortable with.</p>
<p>“I wonder about the effect of “rose-colored glasses” when looking back on our college years.”</p>
<p>Oh, I don’t have any “rose-colored glasses” when looking back at my time at Williams. It wasn’t a good fit for me. (Yes, and Williams ISN’T a good fit for everyone, and lots of students, past and present, “make it work” when (in my opinion) they shouldn’t have to. And anyone who claims that it is just isn’t looking around them very hard.) I was uncomfortable a good deal of the time. It is not an experience I’d choose to repeat. If I had to do it again, I’d go some place else. (And, while my experience is back in the dark ages, I know something about the place today - my d. was recruited there, paid three visits, including two overnights, was admitted, with great financial aid, and went to Smith. Better academics for what she wanted/needed, and better “fit”.)</p>
<p>But I DID get a great education, a stellar education, for which I am grateful to this day.</p>
<p>I don’t know a whole lot about UChicago, but I’d like to point a few things out.</p>
<p>First, it might be too late, but if your financial aid isn’t enough for Harvey Mudd or CMU, you can appeal to get more money. I’m not sure how generous they’d be, but I can tell you that I appealed my financial aid for Williams and received a much better package. I don’t know how good their math and physics departments are, but I know that they are science-oriented schools that have some incredibly smart people (which can be good or bad).</p>
<p>Second, others have already pointed out the strengths of Williams’ math and physics departments, but as sort of a testament to their teaching abilities, I’d like to note that Williams College had four people place in the top five hundred (out of 4,500+ students) of the Putnam competition, supposedly the toughest undergraduate mathematics competition in the nation, this year. One of those four was also in the top two hundred, surely an amazing feat. In comparison, UChicago, with roughly 2.5 times more undergraduates (though I’m unsure how many more math/physics majors) had five students place in the top 500, none of whom were in the top 200. Overall, Williams was tenth, surpassing every Ivy League except Harvard. (By the way, CMU was second, and Harvey Mudd was sixth.)</p>
<p>However, you should really think about which school fits you best, and which school you can get the most out of. I don’t think one is better than the other, and I’m sure both will lead you to a fantastic destination for graduate school if you put in the effort.</p>
<p>Hey guys, thanks for all your help! A lot of people were telling me to go with my gut, so Williams it is!</p>
<p>Great decision. My S made the same one and didn’t regret it at all. Congratulations and have a wonderful time at Williams.</p>