<p>I'm pretty sure that most of HYPSAWS schools are less econonically diverse than they were 20-25 years ago, for the most part because "full fare" is now a much greater percentage of the median family income, meaning that the candidates they want to find (for whatever reason, we don't need to go in for conspiracy theories) are more likely to be found in higher income groups.</p>
<p>What is more interesting to me would be to know whether two years later, adreps would make the same decisions they did on admissions. After all, no matter how you slice it, a full 25% of Swarthmore students will end up in the bottom quarter of Swarthmore's class (same for all schools, obviously) - and they would never be able, or even considered, for transfer into the school if they applied with such abysmal standing. ;) Clearly something is wrong if 50% of the students they accept are ending up in the bottom half of the class, if they haven't dropped out! </p>
<p>I think the system works pretty much the way the prestige leaders want it to work. In the admissions area, they gain far more prestige from rejecting students than they do from accepting them. When they valedictorian with 2400 scores from the little town gets rejected, it is remembered for a long time, far longer than when the valedictorian is accepted, and never returns home.</p>
<p>If we are after more information, it would be far better for high school to provide stats on their own students' success at different colleges. Scattergrams are a first step forward, but more could be provided.
Our high school merely provides a list of the colleges to which students have been accepted. No numbers much less other kinds of stats.
Lack of information should not be all laid at the door of colleges.</p>
<p>"Frankly, I do not understand the repeated statements that having more information could be detrimental or irrelevant. Since when is a lesser educated consumer better equipped to make correct decisions?"</p>
<p>DING DING DING</p>
<p>xiggi is on the money. More information = better. Anyone here ever take an economics class?</p>
<p>Anyone here ever take a "there are far more polite ways to disagree than to be snotty about it" class?</p>
<p>Most of the posts here advocating more numbers are talking about what I would consider <em>data</em>, not <em>information</em>. As several people have mentioned, the true <em>information</em> that I would find useful would come from the high schools, and not from the colleges.</p>
<p>Mootmom: LOL. I'll also add: anyone ever take a "get a clue before you open your mouth" class?</p>
<p>"I'd love to see what she actually does about all her new found wisdom... my guess? Absolutely Nothing."</p>
<p>Unless of course you call traveling to every corner of the country - speaking to parents and educators 100+ days out of the year - and co-writing a book (with a pediatrician at Children's Hospital of Philadelphia) on the social and medical ramifications of the admissions stress cycle "absolutely nothing."</p>
<p>I know this is going back to post 17, but where does the backlash against kids who take a lot of APs come from? My son is taking six this year (he's a junior) not to impress anyone (especially since two are mandatory at our school), but because those are the classes that he enjoys -- that are as fast paced or in depth as he needs. I think this goes back to the issue of judging each applicant on his or her own merits. While some kids might "load up" on APs because they think that'll make their applications stand out, not because of a love of learning, some take those classes because they need the challenge that those classes bring. I hope that the admissions committee can see the difference.</p>
<p>Yea, that's one thing I was definitely confused by. The criticism of kids taking lots of AP courses kind of shocked me, especially them citing the appropriate number as 4-5 courses only.
Most of my friends and classmates have taken more than that, in some cases far more and no one complains. In fact for me my AP and college courses have been my most enjoyable ones.
Even without college admissions I would've taken those classes for the intellectual challenge, for the relaxing end of year, for the lack of homework and busy work.
I'll have taken 9 AP's and 4 college courses by the time I graduate and they've never been the classes I worried about. My tendency to not do homework has gotten me in much more trouble in ostensibly easier, non AP courses.</p>
<p>No one said 4-5 AP courses was the "appropriate" number -- that figure was cited as the "average" number among last year's MIT admits. Some students have zero, some have 13. I think it tends to be clear to good admissions staffs which students take those courses for the intellectual challenge.</p>
<p>"Most of the posts here advocating more numbers are talking about what I would consider <em>data</em>, not <em>information</em>. As several people have mentioned, the true <em>information</em> that I would find useful would come from the high schools, and not from the colleges."</p>
<p>Well, well ... here we go again. So what is the difference between data and information in THIS CONTEXT, if I may ask? Aren't we splitting hair? I have posted EXAMPLES of information -or data, if you prefer that term- that I consider useful. Do you consider the information posted by Rice to be meaningless? </p>
<p>As far as information coming from high school, allow me to be snotty about it by raising the highest doubt about a high school ability to produce useful data. The data produced by a high school only represents a microcosm of the national picture. Look at any California -or Texas- high schools and you get a completely distorted picture of the reality because of the hude draws of the UC and UT system. The scattergrams are almost useless because of the vast difference in GPA calculations. What is the relevance of 4.0 grade is the scale could be out of a 6.0 weighted scale? </p>
<p>Further, are we looking at the information related to COLLEGE admissions or HIGH SCHOOL graduation statistics? You tell me if a comparison of Andover with 90% of the HS in the country is anything but futile in the context of admissions to the Ivy League? </p>
<p>Changing subjects back to post 17... While I believe that it is utterly ridiculous for anyone to take 13 or 16 AP classes, my focus was on the negative impact of the running-wild explosion of "must have" courses. As far as the AP classes being more enjoyable ... I do not doubt that for a second because it is usually MUCH easier to get a high weighted grade with a lot less work. Now, anyone who would take the time to check the material that is tested and HOW IT IS TAUGHT might be in for a surprise. How many AP courses are nothing but a mile wide and an inch deep and merely futile exercises of rote memorization? Do yourself a favor and ask your children if the AP classes are really more difficult to ace, and you may be surprised by the answer. Also, ask them what they learned! Lastly, ask your children, if they would take AP classes if they did not get GPA boosts. </p>
<p>I am frankly disappointed by the "dialogue" in this thread.</p>
<p>High school data can be useful in some cases. The Naviance page for my son's HS reveals, for example, that everyone from that school who applied to Rutgers in the last three years with a weighted GPA of at least 3.3 was accepted. Below 3.3, the prospects were not very good. SAT scores had minimal impact. The current data include about 300 applications, 200 acceptances and 40 admissions. For someone from this HS considering Rutgers, this is valuable information.</p>
<p>As far as the data for the elite schools is concerned, there is not enough of it to make useful conclusions other than that the elites reject a lot of kids with impressive stats. (As if we needed to be told that.)</p>
<p>I'm also puzzled by Xiggi's remarks concerning AP classes these days. First he seems to imply that they are easy to ace with less work than regular classes, then he seems to imply that students are only taking them for the GPA boost. If the AP is truly easier, wouldn't GPA-conscious students be taking them regardless of weighting?</p>
<p>
[quote]
Do yourself a favor and ask your children if the AP classes are really more difficult to ace, and you may be surprised by the answer. Also, ask them what they learned! Lastly, ask your children, if they would take AP classes if they did not get GPA boosts
[/quote]
On the first and second questions, Xiggi, I have to say that my S learned far more (and struggled more) in his AP US History class than I did as a college freshman -- and History major -- oh so many years ago. On what our school calls AP P.O.D. (combo of econ and govt) I would say the jury is still out. I don't think the econ portion of the class was terribly difficult, BUT I have no doubt that it was at least more difficult than the non-standard P.O.D. class. </p>
<p>On the third question I feel very confident in saying -- well, yeah -- because the school doesn't weight :)</p>
<p>I can vouch for the AP Music Theory class that my daughter took (her one and only AP.) She did not bother with the AP test because music schools ignore the AP in favor of their own tests. She placed out of the first semester of music theory at Oberlin Conservatory by taking their theory placement test. From what little I saw of my daughter's homework, I don't think that many in that class would have characterized it as an easy A or an inch deep. I am sure she did not take it for the miniscule boost in her GPA but I will not speculate on anyone else's reason for being there.</p>
<p>"I'm also puzzled by Xiggi's remarks concerning AP classes these days. First he seems to imply that they are easy to ace with less work than regular classes, then he seems to imply that students are only taking them for the GPA boost. If the AP is truly easier, wouldn't GPA-conscious students be taking them regardless of weighting?"</p>
<p>Here is to reconcile the apparently puzzling statement:</p>
<p>My statement DOES assume that the AP classes receive added quality points or in their absence an easier grading policy. No statement can be universally true, but in general, AP classes rarely get failing grades. As far as GPA boosts, you may refer to a few other GPA-related posts such as the NC standard transcript story. In this regard, I would think that it is easier to obtain a 71 in an AP class that gets 2 FULL grades boost than it would be to get an A in the regular. While the material is not easier, it is easier to maximize GPA through weighted classes. </p>
<p>As far as the inch-deep and mile wide, I am convinced that you could find more than one post that echoes my position. But again, there are vast differences in the way AP programs are taught and administered among our high schools. I don't doubt that in some schools the AP turn out to be close to barely legal human torture. All I can say is that I have seen both the hard and the easy types, and that the AP -and IB- programs as they are taught and scored in the public schools in our area are a sick joke.</p>
<p>Xiggi, your posts are more like rants with "logic" increasingly hard to follow. Initially, you seemed to be saying that making a limit on #'s of AP's would reduce student stress; now you are saying that AP's are easy and superficial. First, you were saying that students need info, but you state that h.s. info is useless because it doesn't show the national picture. But, what's relevant to each student is not the national picture, but the specific picture that applies to him/her. So finding out how kids from their school fared in admissions is very helpful--if I go tho a public school in a suburb of NY, the Andover admissions history is irrelevant.</p>
<p>I was unaware that AP's were offering 2 full points boost these days. At my son's HS it is only 1. I can see how it may be easier to get a 71 in an AP class than a 90 in a regular class, but those C's still won't look very good on the transcript.</p>
<p>Yippee!! Doing the happy dance here. Just got a letter in the mail that Ms. Jones is coming to speak to our school next month. It's the start of our official "college search process" according to the school. So that's why I'm paying so much for tuition, we not only have a "process" but get the coolest speaker.</p>
<p>And all this is why my D's school (a very competitive one) gives NO weighting to AP classes! And why she has only taken AP classes because they are challenging and "fun".</p>
<p>At our school, we don't calculate GPA, so you get no benefit (one point or more) for taking AP classes. My son is studying a lot harder in his AP Calc BC class than he ever has before and as for his AP Latin, he's reading Catullus and Horace (in Latin, obviously) and that's not a walk in the park. I guess we're lucky, many of his HS teachers have doctorates so they teach at a pretty high level. The AP classes, from what I've heard, are so rigorous that our grads find college pretty easy (and we place at the top schools in the country). But, of course, I'm only speaking for our school.</p>
<p>"Xiggi, your posts are more like rants with "logic" increasingly hard to follow. Initially, you seemed to be saying that making a limit on #'s of AP's would reduce student stress; now you are saying that AP's are easy and superficial. First, you were saying that students need info, but you state that h.s. info is useless because it doesn't show the national picture. But, what's relevant to each student is not the national picture, but the specific picture that applies to him/her. So finding out how kids from their school fared in admissions is very helpful--if I go tho a public school in a suburb of NY, the Andover admissions history is irrelevant."</p>
<p>I am sorry to read that you consider my posts to be illogical rants. So let me reply to your statement.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>I have already addressed in which way I consider the AP to be easier (for grading purposes) and superficial (incontents.) So, there is no need to repeat that. My opinion on the issue of unneeded stress has not changed, and neither has my opinion about the USE of the AP as an admission factor. </p></li>
<li><p>I have stated that colleges should be more forthcoming about their admissions criteria and help understand their results by documenting the admissions in greater details. Sorry, but I still do not consider that the HS information replaces what I'd like to see, especially since most of the information published by the high school is limited to matriculation. However, I am entirely in favor to see more information coming from the high schools.</p></li>
</ol>