tk, instructional spending is usually inconclusive and impossible to interpret since university budgets are purposely opaque and notoriously tangled. I am sure Chicago’s instructional spending per student is higher than Cal’s or Michigan, but I doubt it is materially higher when you measure spending between those three universities the same way, factor in economies of scale, and adjust for salary differences as a result of cost of living and percentage of the faculty that teach high-paying disciplines (such as Medicine, Business, Law, Physics) vs low-paying salaries (like Art, Music, Philosophy etc…)
@Alexandre 10 Yale School was expressly cited by chicago dean of admissions at repection for admitted students and parents. He quoted this figure with authority noting his Yale background. There is also an outcome report for class of 2016 available. the ten percent is for class of 2017.
Churchill, I am fairly certain that the Dean of Admission was mistaken…or that you misunderstood him. He was referring to the total number of Chicago graduates currently enrolled at Yale Law school, not to the percentage of Yale Law School students that are Chicago graduates.
http://bulletin.printer.yale.edu/pdffiles/law.pdf
If you scroll down to pages 166-168, you will see what I mean. There are currently 656 Yale Law students. Of those, 10 are Chicago graduates. For a non-East Coast school, 10 is excellent mind you. Only Stanford (19) and Cal (16) have more. Michigan, Northwestern, UCLA and WUSTL all have 6-7. A couple of years ago, Michigan had 11, but the last two years must have been thin! 
Harvard and Yale have 65 and 69 graduates enrolled at Yale Law school respectively. Princeton has 37. Columbia has 30 and Brown has 22. No other university has more than 19, which represents less than 3% of the Yale Law school class.
It is doubtful that 2017 is any different. Like I said, it is more likely that he was referring to the total number of Chicago graduates at Yale Law school, which is 10, or slightly under 2% of the total.
And I do not think the dean was referring to the class of 2017 either since the application deadline was February 28, and most decisions have not even yet been made (they are usually made in mid-late April).
But while we are on the topic of Yale educated deans at Chicago, perhaps you should trust the judgement of Gerhard Casper, Yale alumnus, and dean of the Chicago Law school from 1979-1987. He then went on to be president of Stanford University from 1992-2000. In 1996, he wrote a letter to the new editor of the US News, critiquing the methodology of its undergraduate ranking. Below is a quote directly from his letter:
“I am extremely skeptical that the quality of a university - any more than the quality of a magazine - can be measured statistically. However, even if it can, the producers of the U.S. News rankings remain far from discovering the method. Let me offer as prima facie evidence two great public universities: the University of Michigan-Ann Arbor and the University of California-Berkeley. These clearly are among the very best universities in America - one could make a strong argument for either in the top half-dozen. Yet, in the last three years, the U.S. News formula has assigned them ranks that lead many readers to infer that they are second rate: Michigan 21-24-24, and Berkeley 23-26-27.”
https://web.stanford.edu/dept/pres-provost/president/speeches/961206gcfallow.html
You may know better than Dr. Casper, but he seems to think that Michigan and Cal are peers, and that they are both among the best undergraduate institutions in the country…arguably among the “top half-dozen”.
This makes no sense. The deadline for deposits is May 1. Most people haven’t even made their deposits; how could anyone know what the percentage would be?
According to the 2016 outcome report you mentioned, UChicago got 4 offers from Yale law school. That year, Yale law school made 259 offers. That’s 1.5% of the total offers, way less than 10%. I highly doubt it would change that much for class of 2017.
This isn’t a hard game, considering what you want in a school 1)UChicago 2)Berkeley 3)Michigan.
BTW, 93% of UChicago graduate have jobs in hand/graduate school at GRADUATION not 6 months later. (UM grads will need to go back home for a little while) Michigan is a huge undergraduate public university and is not comparable to a medium sized private undergraduate college. Better off comparing Michigan to Berkeley.
Geographically where in the country do you plan / prefer to work?
@IWannaHelp as I said, the dean talked about class of 2017. Not 2016. He specifically cited this. Believe what you will. I doubt he would lie to a group of parents and students abjure something this specific, especially since it is a rather esoteric fact in the grand scheme of things. Yale law school accepts most of its students from Yale , then Harvard. They each provide significantly more than ten percent.
Ten percent of entering class at Yale would be 17 students.
“as I said, the dean talked about class of 2017.”
I don’t see how that is possible. Yale Law school has not yet sent out acceptances. The link below clearly details the application timeline.
https://law.yale.edu/admissions/jd-admissions/first-year-applicants/application
“Yale law school accepts most of its students from Yale , then Harvard. They each provide significantly more than ten percent.”
According to Yale itself, there are 650 students currently enrolled at Yale Law school. 69 of those 656 (10.5%) are Yale graduates and 65 (10%) are Harvard graduates. There are 10 Chicago graduates, which amounts to 1.5% of the total number of students enrolled at Yale Law school.
The facts are published by Yale. I don’t see how we can dispute those facts.
Two explanations. What is oubkushed does not encompass class of 2017. Could be that he neat ten students and not gen percent. Even If ten students. that’s more than five percent of the entering class.
As I said, until I see the actual report, I will not believe the percentage would somehow leap from 1.5% to 10% in one year. That’s just common sense. The fact is most people haven’t made their deposits; that’s like him saying the yield at UChicago is 90% on that date! Why would any reasonable person believe that?
This link http://bulletin.printer.yale.edu/pdffiles/law.pdf says Harvard and Yale each provide just about ten percent, not significantly more.
Edit: sorry, looks like I am one step slower than Alexandre.
“BTW, 93% of UChicago graduate have jobs in hand/graduate school at GRADUATION not 6 months later.”
All universities list 6 months figures because graduate schools usually start 4-5 months after graduation.
“(UM grads will need to go back home for a little while) Michigan is a huge undergraduate public university and is not comparable to a medium sized private undergraduate college.”
Even Chicago graduate go home for a few months if they go straight to graduate school.
“Better off comparing Michigan to Berkeley.”
Michigan and Cal are not similar…and both are different from Chicago. This isn’t a straight forward decision.
Yale law sent acceptances. I know several sad rejects.
Assuming 80% yield, that would be 21 acceptances in 2017 vs 4 acceptances in 2016. Considering that such leap is highly unlikely, I suggest you to wait for the actual statistics to come out before believing it.
Still, UM has a total of 6 at Yale, and 5 times as many undergrad students.
True enough. But that’s now. Some years, Michigan has more. Three years ago, Michigan had 11 and Chicago had 7. Either way, placing an average of 2 (in the case of Michigan) or 3 (in the case of Chicago) graduates into Yale Law annually, out of hundreds of law school-bound graduates, isn’t exactly something to brag about. Princeton, which is smaller than Chicago, has 39 graduates enrolled at Yale Law school, which means an average of 13 annually. Brown has 22 (an average of 7 enrollments annually). Is Princeton vastly superior to Chicago? Or Brown for that matter?
Also, while Michigan is 5 times larger than Chicago, it does not have 5 times more law school applicants. Michigan is far more academically diverse than Chicago. I would estimate Michigan has 3 times more law school applicants than Chicago annually.
A more telling statistic would be the average total number of graduates enrolling in T14 Law schools annually out of the total number of law school applicants. I do not think Chicago would have a clear advantage over Michigan in this respect.
Funny you mention that UChicago puts 84% in top 14 law schools
That is very impressive CU123, but I like verifiable data. Do you have a link?
In the case of Michigan, 10-15% of law school bound students end up at Michigan Law school. I am not sure what percentage enrolls in other T14 law schools.
@Alexandre here you go, select “2016 outcomes” at this website https://careeradvancement.uchicago.edu/about/outcomes-data
Yes … but even if we had those statistics (easily searchable for many colleges over multiple years) they wouldn’t be too meaningful unless we could control for LSAT scores and GPAs. Those are the qualifications that seem to matter most in law school admission. I really doubt that T14 law schools strongly prefer applicants from one top ~50 college over another if the GPAs and scores are the same. Most likely, some colleges place more graduates at some T14 law schools either because more of their applicants are applying, or because they are applying with higher stats. If their average stats are higher, that probably is telegraphing greater undergraduate admission selectivity. I doubt Princeton, Harvard, Chicago or Michigan has any secret formula for raising their undergraduates’ LSAT scores (other that admitting more undergraduates with high SAT/ACT scores).
IMO, PhD production is potentially a more meaningful outcome metric.
First, the NSF publishes massive amounts of searchable data for many years, colleges, and disciplines.
Second, it’s fairly easy (though tedious) to normalize for undergraduate institution or program size.
Although it may be difficult to completely control for selection effects, I believe a PhD completion is more likely to reflect undergraduate treatment effects than a law or med school admission. Even admission to PhD programs hinges on more than GPAs and test scores. The maturity/focus of an applicant’s research interests also matters (sometimes quite a lot); this is more likely than LSAT/MCAT scores to be influenced by good undergraduate instruction and mentoring (particularly in the program we want to assess). To the extent PhD completion metrics (gathered for large populations over many years) reflect good undergraduate instruction and mentoring, they should matter even to people who have no interest in pursuing a doctorate.
Nevertheless there is much we don’t know (or possibly can’t know) from available information. So although statistics and rankings can be helpful in building an initial college application list, they aren’t necessarily a good basis for making a final choice (especially if used to justify a big price premium or a bad personal fit). The OP apparently already has his final choices. When all the choices are good, usually one of the first questions I like to ask is, “What’s the net price difference?” S/he hasn’t chimed in about that, nor about personal preferences (for weather, social life, sports, etc.)