<p>Stats21, where is that LIKE button when I need it? LOL.</p>
<p>I have seen nothing that shows that any club or frat has race exclusion policies.</p>
<p>Nor have I. The article suggests that candidates are excluded based on race, it does not inform as to whether the exclusion is by rule or by operation. It also suggests that not a single black girl made it through rush. That is a curious, if not troubling result. </p>
<p>I have no idea whether the facts are as reported by the Crimson White, but if they are - it’s not good.</p>
<p>Did the article state how many black girls went through rush? Did the writer ask if the black girls were open to pledging a multi-racial sorority? And if not, why not?</p>
<p>[Witt</a> defends traditional greek system | The Crimson White](<a href=“YouA moves from Youtube – The Crimson White”>YouA moves from Youtube – The Crimson White)</p>
<p>I don’t see how the title of the article matches its content, but everyone can decide for him/herself.</p>
<p>NJBama - Those are very valid questions. It seems astonishing that not a single black girl made rush. The question is, of course, is why. Unanswered.</p>
<p>Quite frankly, in a diverse population, an all-white anything sounds bad to me, whether it is a country club, social organization, or fraternity. And traditionally all-white should rightly set off alarms. Certain traditions should not be honored.</p>
<p>I don’t disagree with you. But I’m curious as to why in a diverse population that an all-black anything isn’t regarded with the same disdain. </p>
<p>That’s just not directed at you. It’s a question for all.</p>
<p>The Crimson White would gain a bit of respect if they attacked the entire greek system at UA and not just the “white part”.</p>
<p>Because of the historical fact that blacks were systematically discriminated against in virtually all areas, including: education, housing, commerce, public facilities (including rest rooms and water fountains), transportation, and on and on. </p>
<p>So white only neighborhoods, churches, clubs, etc. were a matter of choice. Black neighborhoods, churches, clubs, etc. evolved as a matter of neccessity. Buoyed by a misguided USSC decision, public school segegation was was validated so long as the schools were separate but equal. Brown v. Board of Ed changed that (separate is never equal). </p>
<p>The last remnants of those nasty “traditions” are exclusionary policies found today in certain private associations. And while Witt can’t do a thing about a country club that excludes blacks, or Jews, or Catholics, or whites (general), he clearly can influence the admission standards of frats and sororities. If there is a problem, it should be addressed.</p>
<p>NJbama…that is my issue too. Yes, “all white” sets off certian flags, and for good reason it deserves a second look. But why not all Jewish, all girl, all hispanic set off the same red flags and require second look?</p>
<p>Are there really any “all white” or “all black” social organizations at UA? How exactly does one define “white” and “black” when making that determination?</p>
<p>I agree that certain traditions should not be honored. Perhaps Witt should establish a “death penalty” for any organization that is shown to have excluded someone because of race.</p>
<p>Stats21, we cross posted. I think that you have to really be discriminated against to have discrimination. Is this a matter of people looking at a situation and seeing “all white” (or whatever), and assuming that it is because of descrimination? And if the people that are rushing/pleging are not feeling discriminated against then is it discrimination?</p>
<p>And just because you have forced integration does not mean that discrimination goes away. Even in that organization. It just looks nicer to those looking in.</p>
<p>I think NJBama asked that as well, and I think it is the relevant question. The editorial left it unanswered. On it’s face it seeems troubling, but you really need more facts to know what is going on.</p>
<p>Think of it this way: it is like waking up with a huge growth on your face; it looks ugly and ominous. Naturally your worst fear is a malignancy, so you spare no effort in having the eyesore analyzed and tested. Hopefully it’s not malignant, but either way it’s ugly.</p>
<p>Agreed, but do you undergo surgery for that growth that turns out to be benign just to not have to look at it anymore? Or are you happy that it is not malignant and go on your merry way and live your life?</p>
<p>I am curious how the articles made the determinations in their assertions. How was it determined that all “black girls” were “dropped from recruitment by every sorority”? Did the CW interview every girl who wasn’t dropped to determine how, and if, they each identified their “race”, or did they use a more superficial method?</p>
<p>^^ I think that is part of the rub, and seems to be a common thread with the last few editorial type letters published that have been on here. Lack of real data and real evidence of the allegations. Very “Fox News” like. LOL</p>
<p>Well, I thought I’d take a different track on this, so as NOT to beat the dead horse once again. :-)</p>
<p>First, this is a link to the UA Policy & Procedures for Student Organizations … both Fraternal and Non-Fraternal.</p>
<p>[Student</a> Handbook](<a href=“http://www.studenthandbook.ua.edu/nonfratguidelines.html]Student”>http://www.studenthandbook.ua.edu/nonfratguidelines.html) </p>
<p>Notice, that for non-fraternal orgs, there is a Clearly defined “without regard to” statement, which we would all hope to see.</p>
<p>Notice further down in the page that there is NO such language for the Fraternal organizations, but instead that the Greek system must be (paraphrasing here) “demonstrating satisfactory progress towards meeting a set of standards and expectations developed to assure the quality of Greek life at the University of Alabama. These standards and expectations form the core of the University’s Greek Self-Assessment Program …”</p>
<p>So, the University is expecting the Greek system to self regulate, adopt policies, and show progress consistent with the goals of the Greek community.</p>
<p>So there we have it, right? Not that I’m saying I agree 100%, but it is up to the Greeks to decide, one way or another, to make a change … a change that is workable within the context of Greek Life on campus.</p>
<p>That being said, the Supreme Court has spoken on this where a University refuses to recognize and/or charter a Greek organization where the University has a blanket non-discrimination policy. If the University were to set it as a policy for ALL organizations wishing to receive any University funds and/or other assistance, there is precedent that it is not going against Free Speech because the University is not banning the speach / conduct, but rather saying we just won’t sponsor you so don’t expect any money or University resources (meeting space, housing, etc.) … but they’re still able to “gather” in public locations on campus for meetings, to distribute flyers, etc. as anyone can do as a right of free speech.</p>
<p>I found a website that has interesting information on this topic regarding the state of California schools and San Diego State University. I’ll not post it here because I’m not certain if that’s allowed on this forum, but if anyone wants the link then just PM me.</p>
<p>Here’s what the Supreme Court has said in one recent case:</p>
<p>‘’… a public University does not violate the Constitution when it conditions official recognition of a student group, and the attendant use of school funds and facilities, on the organization’s agreement to open eligibility for membership and leadership to all students."</p>
<p>Sorry, the lawyer in me coming out, but there IS a way for UA to get where it needs to be. Not overnight, and not by paramilitary force, but because we all understand what is the right thing to do. Listen, nobody is saying implement quotas, but whether it’s an AA in a “white” house, or the other way around, if that “person” fits with the group, there should be no official barrier in place. I’ll posit that if any SE Asian, Indian, Filipino (read non-AA) person of color can get into a house, then why not AA if the moment and the fit is right. If 2 kids from the same neighborhood & high school (like M2CK’s) of similar socio-economic background are of different skin color but in all other respects are best friends and dream of going to UA and joining the same Frat … why not? These kids should dream of the prospect of being able to join the Greek system in all it’s glory, not wonder if there’s a multicultural “alternative” … how sad is that?</p>
<p>ΔΔΔVery nice post, Dad. Have you considered passing this on to Dr. Witt’s office?</p>
<p>Dad2 - well done. It can be done; my question is whether it will be done if a leader referencing the traditions of all-white, all-black, an multicultural alternatives; and I ask this question on behalf of the year 2011 (power of attorney attached). Witt seems like a great guy, but this seems troubling.</p>
<p>Disclaimer: I am not an expert and anyone else’s opinion has a better than likely chance to be more insightful than mine; but in my view Bama has made great progress, by any standard, by changing and modernizing in innovative ways. Segregation, in any form, causes eyes to widen, curiosities to peak, and suspicions to surface.</p>
<p>Regarding the “beating the dead horse” complaints. it seems as if the old nag may be alive and well. That’s the problem.</p>
<p>Anyone out there willing to propose an objective standard that will define when a Greek organization has successfully integrated? The devil is in the details on matters such as this.</p>
<p>Malanai … “objectivity” sounds to me like “counting” which sounds like quotas / tokens / and other not so nice outcomes. The “system” needs to “feel” more open to all those engaged in the process. You can bet the students KNOW which houses have which “reps”, right? Everyone knows GOING IN whether they have a snowball’s chance in h-ll of getting in some of the houses, right? So, it’s only through systematic change, with the University’s support (and perhaps prodding) that over time the perceptions and the feelings and then the outcomes will change.</p>