As a senior, my three favorite schools that I’ve applied to are Bryn Mawr, Mount Holyoke, and Smith. I’m not really sure what I want to major in, but I’m considering international relations, computer science, physics, or (if I go to Smith) possibly engineering. My dad thinks that I should just go to Purdue if I’m planning on the more science-type majors, because we’ve looked at the course catalog and major requirements of those majors in the three women’s colleges and he doesn’t think that they’re rigorous or “techie” enough. He’s not a huge fan of liberal arts colleges (he’s an engineer) and he thinks that a Purdue grad with a degree in computer science is going to be much more prepared and have way better job prospects than, say, a Bryn Mawr computer science grad. Is this true? I’ve always heard that graduates from women’s colleges can get good jobs and they have good counseling, but would I be better off just going to Purdue?
The smaller size of LACs does usually mean a smaller selection of advanced course work, particularly in less popular majors, and probably less attention from recruiting employers (who may prefer bigger schools to get more recruits per visit).
But MH and Smith have cross-registration and career center sharing with nearby University of Massachusetts - Amherst that can reduce these problems. BM has cross-registration with Pennsylvania, but that may be a less convenient commute.
I think it’s a personal decision only you and your family can make. For many, what may look like a good paying job immediately after college may mean hitting a ceiling in terms of income and opportunities for promotion just when many liberal arts grads are hitting their stride. Non-engineering students, including quite a few STEM fields, typically allow majors more time to consider a variety of options, including academia, business and professional degrees (like medicine, and architecture) that may in fact lead to bigger pay-offs in terms of job satisfaction in the long-term, particularly as you hit your peak earning years.
@GB1904: With respect for your father, his conclusion (citied in your initial post) is based on a premise that I – and I, too, am a “technical person,” having spent 40+ years in tactical aviation engineering and program management, as a naval officer and a Lockheed Martin executive – find most unlikely. Let’s presume that for the extremely rare UNDERGRADUATE prodigy in a STEM field (I’ll use physics, simply to illustrate my point), “a Purdue” might conceivably provide marginally more “scientific and technical” education than “a Smith” (I am not at all certain that is true, but I want to give your father’s position every possible advantage).
However my central point is, the overwhelming majority undergraduates – including exceptionally bright, accomplished, and focused ones – will NEVER approach the academic/intellectual limits provided at either “a Smith” or “a Purdue”. Therefore, on the day of her/his Bachelor’s commencement, both young alums will essentially be equally prepared for careers and for postgraduate school.
Add to this a few quite relevant elements:
- The cross-registration permitted at UMass can allow for course not available at Mount Holyoke (go Lions), Smith, etc.
- More critically, the learning imparted from all those liberal arts courses – that many pure-STEM undergraduates at “a Purdue” seldom take – really does provide highly important benefits. As my career evolved and I became responsible for larger programs, for the performance of many hundreds of colleagues, and for billions of dollars of taxpayer money, I increasing relied on my in- and beyond-classroom liberal arts background. At some point in his/her career, many STEM leaders will have lots of teammates to do the math, science, engineering, and operations “grunt work;” their vital job will be the combination of management, systems and program integration, leadership, prudent decision making, and judicious/farsighted aggregate program execution.
If you believe it might be wise, please share this post with your father.
Big universities and small LACs do vary considerably in H/SS general education requirements. For example, Brown and Amherst have none (except for ABET-accredited engineering majors at Brown), while MIT and Harvey Mudd have extensive H/SS general education requirements.
Smith College actually has minimal general education requirements, but to graduate with Latin Honors or Liberal Arts Commendation, a student must complete the pattern described at http://www.smith.edu/academics/guidelines-and-procedures/curriculum . This pattern (with at least 24 credits in H/SS courses) is also required for engineering majors.
Mount Holyoke’s general education requirements are listed here with its overall bachelor’s degree requirements: https://www.mtholyoke.edu/registrar/ab .
Bryn Mawr’s general education requirements are listed here with its overall bachelor’s degree requirements: http://www.brynmawr.edu/deans/four_year_pic/coll_degree_reqs.shtml
Sometimes self-enforcing “expectations” are just as effective as the more stringent “requirement”, if you have the right student environment. Anecdotal evidence from Wesleyan and Brown, for example, suggests that most of their graduates find them fairly easy to fulfill.
There’s currently a thread about LACs and STEM careers. You can see that the women’s colleges are very high in the lists …
Also, let me just add that MHC is GREAT for international relations! And, an advantage of a small LAC is that the professors are very accessible and committed to helping their students. My D made a connection with a bio prof right away and he is already helping her find internships in her field, etc.
http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/18057764#Comment_18057764
Here are some excerpts:
According to a National Science Foundation survey, the following were the top 25 U.S. baccalaureate-origin LACs of 2002–11 science & engineering doctorate recipients, adjusted for institution size:
Harvey Mudd (24.4 S&E PhDs per 100 alumni)
Reed
Swarthmore
Carleton
Grinnell
Pomona
Haverford
Williams
Bryn Mawr
Macalester
Hillsdale
Oberlin
Amherst
Lawrence U.
Kalamazoo
Wesleyan
Wellesley
Hendrix
Whitman
Allegheny, Vassar, Bowdoin
Earlham
Mt. Holyoke
Occidental (5.7 S&E PhDs per 100 alumni)
Source: http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/infbrief/nsf13323/
Top LACs for STEM majors ranked by USNews
All STEM Fields
- Harvey Mudd 93.0%
- Lafayette 41.7%
- Pomona 36.0%
- Bucknell 35.3%
- Carleton 34.8%
- St. Olaf 33.0%
- Union 31.4%
- Colby 31.0%
- Scripps 28.6%
- Williams 27.6%
- Swarthmore 27.1%
- Colorado College 26.7%
- Grinnell 25.9%
- Lawrence 25.8%
15. Mount Holyoke 25.6% - Gettysburg 25.2%
- Oberlin 25.0%
- Wabash 25.0%
- St. Lawrence 25.0%
- Macalester 24.4%
21. Bryn Mawr 24.1% - Bowdoin 23.9%
- Hamilton 23.7%
- Whitman 23.7%
- Middlebury 23.4%
- Wellesley 22.9%
- Franklin & Marshall 22.7%
- Rhodes 22.6%
- Reed 22.6%
- DePauw 22.4%
- Haverford 22.0%
32. Smith 21.5%
Top 30+ LACs for PhD Production in Math and Computer Science
Year: 2003-2012
Carnegie Classification (standardized): Baccalaureate/Liberal Arts I
Academic Discipline, Broad (standardized): Mathematics and Computer Science
Source: webcaspar.com (NSF data)
Number of Doctorates Earned by Alumni… College
50 Williams College
47 Carleton College
42 Swarthmore College
37 St Olaf College
34 Oberlin College
30 Reed College
27 Amherst College
25 Pomona College
22 Grinnell College
22 Haverford College
22 Macalester College
21 Bucknell University
20 Whitman College
19 Furman University
19 Smith College
17 Bryn Mawr College
17 Wesleyan University
16 Bowdoin College
16 Colgate University
16 Hope College
16 Wheaton College (Wheaton, IL)
15 Lafayette College
15 Spelman College
14 Davidson College
14 DePauw University
14 Lawrence University
13 University of Minnesota - Morris
13 University of Puget Sound
13 Wellesley College
12 Mt. Holyoke,
To add to the LAC camp: the research support at the top LACs is tremendous. A combination of no grad students and a commitment to supporting student research means that (paid) research opportunities are available from the summer after first year, and (paid) classroom experience (lab assistants/TA) as early as second year.
Also, there is a difference between the range of classes offered and the rigor of those classes- and the PhD success of the LACs would support that.
At my D’s school, even some second-semester first-years are offered TA jobs 
Thank you so much everyone!
@TopTier do you think that technical liberal arts bachelor degrees are employable? My dad was afraid that, since a (for example) computer science degree at Mount Holyoke requires several fewer computer science courses than Purdue does, I’d have to attend grad school or something to “fill in the gaps.”
@staceyneil thanks for the lists! I really appreciate all your posts about MoHo–they’ve helped made it my first choice college!
I’ve worked in CS for many years and have yet to have anyone question what courses comprised my degree. I graduated from a small Catholic liberal arts school (so small many upper-level courses were offered only every other year).
The most important thing I learned is that most of what you learn in your classes is not going to be directly applicable to a job. The more so the further out you get from graduation. You need to learn the concepts, but most importantly learn how to learn and understand that CS is a field where you never finish learning. I never took a database course - yet spent several years working in Oracle. The technologies I work on today did not even exist when I was in college. I have gone and taken courses here and there to “fill in gaps”, but that’s because courses like Web Design and User-Centered Design did not exist when I was in school. And the writing and critical thinking skills I learned at a liberal arts institution have been very valuable.
There are sure to be some employers out there who will want the uber-technical people and who will look down on the degree from the liberal arts school - but there are many others who will value the broader skill set. You need to think about what type of school is the best fit for you. I knew I wanted a technical major, but I also knew I wanted the wider range of opportunities offered at a school with significant core requirements and where it was easy to take courses outside my major.
This is not in my experience. Typically, the CS job interview can be very penetrating. The degree lays down the basics and makes sure you can produce structured code which can be maintained by someone else, and that you have the thought process to logically lay down the path to the desired outcome. Beyond that, I do not know of any employer who hires only from a top school.
Math or engineering: though I do hear what @TopTier says, and I agree that the foundational liberal arts education is very valuable, I worry how easy it is to top out at a LAC- though the cross registration available at these schools makes it less of a worry. For example, a place like Reed- what do you do when/if you run out of classes?
The “running out of classes” problem is more common, but not exclusive, at small schools due to a tendency toward smaller departments. However, each school is different, so checking each school’s offerings (in catalogs and schedules) to see if “running out of classes” is a risk in each department of interest is something that can be done early in the search process. Cross-registration agreements that are convenient (e.g. MH or Smith with UMass) can help.
@InigoMontoya, that’s very helpful, thank you!
@ItsJustSchool I guess the thing I’m worried about is, maybe an employer doesn’t hire just from a top school, but they certainly recruit. I know Purdue’s huge with recruiters and job/career fairs, which is certainly a plus for them…
@ucbalumnus I definitely am a fan of the UMass cross-reg. Although I’m not sure how easy it is to actually register and get into higher, more specialized classes. Bryn Mawr is one of my top choices, but I’ve been told that it’s very hard to register with UPenn, and Haverford doesn’t offer much more than Bryn Mawr does. I don’t want to go to a college and hedge my bets on getting into classes at another institution, if that makes sense…
Usually upper division courses are easier to register for, since upperclassmen tend to be specialized., so the classes invariably have a space or two available. As far as recruiting, that could be an issue. People I know were able to get internships during the summers, and had that experience on their resumes to contact the college recruiters directly. Please realize that companies do come through a university, but these same companies have college openings they are trying to fill, whether from on-campus recruiting or otherwise. I do not think there is an advantage to meeting a recruiter on-campus. In the end, it is all decided centrally, at the company headquarters.
If you are proactive your senior year, and use your career placement services to help structure the process, you certainly can interview with whomever you choose, without requiring them to come onto your campus. I highly doubt there are a certain number of slots reserved for graduates from a particular college (yes, alumni preference from hiring managers may be a factor, but experience will trump that).
Be careful with CS, in terms of class space availability. Many schools have experienced surging CS enrollments in the last few years, such that they may be reaching their capacity (since increasing instructional capacity may be slower than increasing student interest). Students interested in CS may want to investigate whether a given school (and its cross-registration partners, if applicable) are having this problem.
If you have any interest in engineering, look into this program at BMC.
<a href=“http://www.brynmawr.edu/deans/exp_acad_options/3-2_prog_eng_app_sci.shtml”>http://www.brynmawr.edu/deans/exp_acad_options/3-2_prog_eng_app_sci.shtml
Another link between BMC and Penn:
<a href=“http://www.seas.upenn.edu/prospective-students/graduate/programs/4+1.php”>http://www.seas.upenn.edu/prospective-students/graduate/programs/4+1.php
Have you contacted any profs in departments that interest you at Bryn Mawr or Haverford? The faculty at both LACs are willing to work with students who have special interests–that’s one of the benefits of going to a small LAC. Also, Swarthmore is part of the tri-co consortium with BMC and Haverford. Have you looked at the STEM departments there? My D (BMC grad) had a friend who took all of her major courses at Swarthmore. There’s lots of flexibility.
My D took one course at Penn–it’s not as close as Haverford (you can walk to Haverford), but it’s not difficult to get to Swarthmore. There’s a bus that goes to BMC, Haverford, and Swarthmore regularly–day and night (not all night, but fairly late).
That is nothing special – lots of LACs offer 3+2 programs, presumably to market themselves to students who may consider engineering. But the fact that they are rarely completed by transfer to the “2” school (perhaps due to not being admitted to or not getting enough financial aid at the “2” school) means that they are not really good choices for most students who are interested in engineering. Note that they are five year programs, so an extra year of budget is needed.
UCB–my point wasn’t that the program was “special”–it was to let the OP know that it was possible to get an engineering degree if she really wanted to go to her first choice school–which she identified as BMC. it would be important for the OP to ask the admissions people at BMC how many students from Bryn Mawr go on to finish the 3-2 program. The other program with UPenn isn’t a typical 3-2 program. Again, I’m encouraging the student to explore the possibilities at BMC and not make assumptions.
S1 majored in a science at a strong LAC and just completed his MEng at a top engineering school with a great GPA. His LAC prepared him well and gave him a solid foundation to continue on to graduate school in engineering. He did a double major in his undergraduate so a 3-2 was not possible for him and it worked out better going on for engineering at the graduate level. He commented that he preferred the smaller class sizes at the LAC for his undergraduate degree.
So if you are thinking of a Masters degree someday, the LAC option can work out just fine.