<p>It takes a gargantuan effort to construe anything I wrote in this thread as “blasting” or attacking a poster. In fact, I brought up the study (and the books) in an answer to a comment that suggested I was in need of a recommendation for books on the subject. </p>
<p>You, on the other hand, parachuted onto this thread with repeated demands for explanations and a mischaracterization of posts, including unfounded accusations. </p>
<p>The only part of your series of judgmental posts that is correct is that I am indeed unwilling to discuss my positions with someone who DEMANDS explanations for the obvious objective of igniting a debate. Fwiw, I rarely walk away from a debate or a challenge, unless I consider it a total waste of my time or simply a waste of space on this forum. Again, if you care to debate the issues of Asian discrimination, there are plenty of threads that have been derailed by people who seem obsessed with repeating relentlessly the same trite and tired arguments, and this at the slightest opportunity. And yes, THAT is a criticism of those posters’ actions. Plain and direct! </p>
<p>As far as what I relish to do on this forum, I do not believe that you’re in a position to judge me with objectivity or knowledge of my history on College Confidential.</p>
<p>Angier, I think this varies hugely. Up here in the Boston 'burbs, almost nobody at my son’s elite school is applying to more than ten. In the last few years, most have keep it to six to eight. A few go lower (and get fine results), a very few go higher. I have limited information about other similar schools, but for at least a few of them , ten is seen as an upper limit.</p>
<p>Agreed. My point was the tremendous regional (and perhaps even school specific) variation in this. Seems like some are viewing this as some sort of a moral issue, to me it is a strategic/cultural one with no “right” answer. I know I also saw statistics that kids in states with an excellent public state system (CA, MI, VA, NC, etc) are much less likely to apply to a large number of schools than kids in NE states where this option is seen as much less desirable. Also a kid whose qualifications neatly fit into a category (e.g., “science genius”) may need to apply to fewer schools than a kid who is more “all around” or “quirky”.</p>
<p>Well…briefly putting on my Socratic hat… Is any decision without a moral component? That being said, I would agree that there is no single right answer from both a moral and strategic viewpoint. We (and the other schools I know of) are also blessed with excellent college advisors who can help kids cut down lists without sacrificing options.</p>
<p>My kids are in New England but went to an unknown public high schools that rarely has sent kids to most of the schools my kids applied to. Kid #1 applied to 8 schools and some were top elites. She was what one would describe as “well rounded.” Kid #2 applied to 8 highly competitive speciality college programs, coming from a high school that doesn’t even have a program in her field. These college programs each accepted anywhere from 2-9% of applicants and had a subjective component (audition in three areas of talent). Both got into 6, waitlisted at 1 and denied at 1.</p>
<p>I still believe if one is a true contender for highly competitive colleges (or programs), they don’t need a huge list to get into college. I also work with applicants every year from schools across the country, both private and public, and from top students to poor students, and rarely have met anyone who needs more than 13 schools tops. Most could do 8-10 or 8-12.</p>
<p>I agree with this, especially when the issue is predominantly just being admitted somewhere. However, for those who have controlling financial considerations as well, I think it’s a good idea to widen the field since that aspect can be significantly more volatile. </p>
<p>For example, those who might be in contention for large merit awards and have also made that an important objective will need to stategize accordingly. In some cases I think that would justify an expanded list of schools. </p>
<p>That said, I am reticent to suggest that there’s an ideal number of applications one way or the other. Seems to me that the driver of that decision ought to based on the number of realistically qualifying places meeting a student’s priorities after a period of vigorous due diligence, consideration of available time and money, and overarching objectives. Since those things vary so widely, I think it has to be a customized decision. </p>
<p>To me, it’s really only a waste of time when people select a ton of schools without bothering to properly evaluate them (e.g. only because they are popular, included on some arbitrary ranking, sounds prestigious, have a free application, etc.) and just start applying willy nilly all over the place. </p>
<p>Thus, I think the conversation I’d have with a student would focus on the reasons behind the list of schools rather than the number. For D3 that number was about 18 or so - double the number for D2, and nearly triple the number for D1. Each had a different scenario that drove their choices and I would argue that all were equally justified.</p>
<p>FLVADAD, I am in complete agreement. I tell all my students that there is no magic number of total schools for the college list and that this is very individualized for each situation. As a broad generality, typically anywhere between 8-12 tends to suffice. But there are several situations that call for something different than that. </p>
<p>You brought up on example of really needing merit aid or even need based aid and that might necessitate more schools. I know for students applying to arts programs, I sometimes get a student who can’t decide between a BA or a BFA and so their list is a little longer than the list for a student who knows they want a BFA or vice versa. Some of these kids who can’t decide between these two paths, end up with 13 or 14 schools. Those who have been able to narrow that down, make do with 12 or less. </p>
<p>So, it is truly tailored to specific kids’ needs. </p>
<p>That said, I find it pretty rare that any kid needs more than 15 schools. I’d have to hear the reasons, and then see. I would never give a limit of course. But I would advise someone accordingly.</p>
<p>My friend’s son wants to get in a BS/MD program no matter what is the cost. So she took him to apply for 12 BS/MD schools. That is probably a LONGER list than those apply to 30, because each school must interview those applicants on campus. His sr. year was spent mostly on traveling which costs more than $10,000. And he ended up got rejected by each and every.</p>
<p>For those stories, however, where I find out a kid got rejected to all their colleges, or all their colleges but their safety, my general thought is that the list was not a realistic one to begin with…both in terms of being appropriate to the student’s qualifications and also in how well the total list was balanced. </p>
<p>If you make 12 attempts and strike out, you were not realistically a contender for such schools. I have run into a LOT of people who build VERY unrealistic lists for themselves.</p>
<p>I agree that students pursuing programs that require interviews and tryouts can have a much tougher way to go if they have an extensive list. That was our situation as well – but not fully across the board. It was further complicated by having interests in more than one area that required such things. D3 really came to a crossroads where she could have gone in a number of competing directions. She wanted to keep doing it all at a high level (music, athletics, some fairly esoteric academic interests, etc), but was being forced to make some serious choices in terms of priority. And of course, all the costs needed to be sorted out as well. That’s part of what made for such a long list: trying to keep several important options on the table as long as possible, trying to address the “if this then that” combinations, and also looking for the best value quotient. It was a real matrix for her to work through.</p>
<p>It is a gigantic stretch to call it a debate. How much ambiguity is there in your statement below?
</p>
<p>You made a clear and simple statement that you just cannot back up with any fact.Yet you don’t have the courage and grace to admit being wrong. So, out comes “why you care what I think?” But I suppose that obfuscation and running away from a challenge to your own statement is still a big improvement from childish name-calling.</p>
<p>NCL - “Shall we also assume that you actually read Prof. Espenshade’s studies and were comfortable with his data pool?” is a question, not a statement. You can presume some intention, of course.</p>
<p>^^ The kid I was talking about graduated from Berkeley Engineering! He is tall and handsome, I have no idea why those 12 bs/md schools did not take him. Another kid from our HS got into USC BS/MD this year is not outstanding, at around 8-10% ranking, I know him because his mom works with me in music boosters a lot. The Val of our school did not get into Harvard, but a lower ranking kid did, its wiered.</p>