Would a Harvard Extension School degree hold the same weight as a Harvard degree?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Harvard University
121

<p>"a woman who fears age discrimination is fully within her rights in deceiving employers about her age by looking as young as possible."</p>

<p>Imagine where all older women who are looking for a job fear this and all report their age lower by five years. Eventually the companies catch on and start adding 5 years from whatever the number women give them. Women, then, have to substract their age even further to adapt to this change. Soon enough companies will hire fetuses who have grown kids in college. LOL! I'll be soon competing with second-trimester unborn for job.</p>

122

<p>"First off, Callahan didn't just get only her PhD from a diploma mill. She also got her bachelor's and master's at that same diploma mill"</p>

<p>I don't remember that from the story, but I'll take your word for it.</p>

<p>With respect to marketing yourself aggresively, I still think you have to write Harvard University Extension School on your resume'.</p>

123

<p>Some how I can't reconcile this:
"I have never once advocated the violation of any actual rules."</p>

<p>with this:</p>

<p>"a woman who fears age discrimination is fully within her rights in deceiving employers about her age by looking as young as possible."</p>

<p>...uh? So you are saying as long as nothing is on the book, then it's fair game. And here I thought employers have rules on the book that says something like, "Sign Here if everything you have given us is the truth." Well in that case, I can just pretend I'm fluent in 15 languages because it's within my right to do so and I'm sure that there is no rule that forbids me from disclosing the accurate number of languages I'm fluent in. Since I'm right in doing this, companies can't fire me for doing so...It's my right...uh? Does this make any sense to anyone else beside sakky?</p>

<p>"You guys don't have your facts straight."
And you don't have your ethics straight. If you are going for the 'eat-them-before-they-eat-me' attitude, then stick with it. I actually understand and can sympathize with that. But don't defend yourself with the "I have never once advocated the violation of any actual rules" bullcrap. If reporting accurate information about your identity is not an "actual rule," then what the hell is? You are making yourself look like a hypocrit.</p>

124

<p>i am a harvard student at the moment and my mother has taken classes through the harvard extension program... i can honestly say that the extension school is nothing like actually attending harvard, and employers know it.</p>

125

<p>If I were an HES grad, I would want to make that clear to my employer and fellow employees if only for the fact that when they find out the truth, they may react with shock and maybe anger that they feel they have been deceived. Even though you were perfectly accurate in how you phrased your degree, they may feel that you tried to sell yourself as having better credentials than you actually do. You probably won't get fired for it, but you may lose trust and credibility.</p>

<p>As bluebayou said, its unlikely that many people other than those in the NE even know HES exists, so they wouldn't even know to ask the question.</p>

126

<p>if the classes are the same, and the grading is the same...is it the "emvironment" that is different, and does life experience, work experience count for nada, just that someone back 4 years aog, stamped acccepted on a piece of paper</p>

<p>it is amazing how protective harvard people are, that even though there are HES people sitting next to them in a class, those students are somehow lesser</p>

<p>the arrogance astounds</p>

<p>ps- I am taking Extended Learning classes at a local university, and the Adults, those that have actually done things, worked, etc, have just as much if not more to add to the class discussions, etc- just cause we don't hang out in the dorms, or eat dinner, or go to the events, doesnt' mean we are any less of a student or any less of an asset</p>

127

<p>^^I am not a Harvard student, so I really am not "protective" of the degree. However, the hardest part of getting the degree is getting into the university, not performing well in the classes. That's why this is basically unethical.</p>

<p>Regardless of what you say in the interview, the bottom line is that to get any job you need to submit a resume'. CGM, do you really think its ok to write "Harvard University-- Bachelor's" instead of Harvard University Extension School? I don't.</p>

128

<p>The classes are NOT the same--I have looked at the online syllabuses for classes that are offered both through Harvard Extension School and Harvard College. </p>

<p>Still pinging sakky to back up his claims in another post (which are now quite incredible to me now that I have seen take the position he is taking here about accurate statements of fact). </p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/454967-hardest-colleges-stay-2.html?highlight=sakky#post1059736137%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/454967-hardest-colleges-stay-2.html?highlight=sakky#post1059736137&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

129

<p>Disclaimer: I know nothing about the Harvard Extension School prior to this thread. The "facts" cited here are strictly from the Harvard Extension School website.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Plus if you get below a B average your out

[/quote]

FACT:
"To be accepted to the program you must meet the following criteria: </p>

<br>


<br>

<p>
[quote]
Its the same courses, professors, textbooks, exams, syllabi...

[/quote]

No, not really... not according to the FAQs:
"Q: Can I transfer Extension School course credits toward a degree at Harvard College?</p>

<p>No. Harvard Extension School and Harvard College are separate schools at the University. The Extension School is designed for the working adult population whose academic needs differ from students in the traditional college program. However, admitted degree candidates in the Extension School can take courses at Harvard College through the Special Student Program, and their Harvard College course credits count toward their Extension degrees."</p>

<p>And how do you take courses through the Special Student Program?</p>

<p>"Special Student status enables you to enroll in two courses a term for an academic year in the Harvard Faculty of Arts and Sciences (FAS). If you have a 3.33 GPA and have completed 32 credits at the Extension School you may apply, with recommendations from the program director and two instructors." <a href="http://www.extension.harvard.edu/2007-08/programs/undergrad/options.jsp%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.extension.harvard.edu/2007-08/programs/undergrad/options.jsp&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Thus only a handful of the courses are the same, and your choices are limited due to the nature of the ALB program.</p>

<p>
[quote]
It is acceptable, therefore, to list the ALM degree on your resume in the following manner:
Harvard University, Master of Liberal Arts, concentration in history</p>

<h2>Unacceptable: Harvard University, MA in History</h2>

<p>NO WHERE does it say you have to put "extention".

[/quote]

Technically correct. However, I presume the following FAQ means that your Harvard diploma will have the phrase "Extension Studies" on it:
"Q: What does the diploma look like?
The degree that you earn is either the Associate in Arts (AA) or the Bachelor of Liberal Arts (ALB) in Extension Studies from Harvard University."</p>

<p>Besides, for your first couple jobs, the employer will probably ask you to send a transcript. Wanna bet if "Extension Studes" will appear on the transcript? I would advice putting that on your resume so you don't have to "explain" it during the interview.</p>

<p>Btw, the FAQs you quoted is for the Master of Liberal Arts.</p>

<p>I bet most employers are like me...with little or no knowledge on HES. There is no way we would consider HES equivalent to a Harvard degree, or any of the top colleges.</p>

130

<p>gg 10</p>

131

<p>Thanks, GoBlue81, for looking up the facts.</p>

132

<p>Apparently Blue is the only person who has the foresight to look up actual data rather than relying on some word-of-mouth stories. Thanks blue.</p>

133

<p>Blue forgot to mention that hHarvard college students can use HES credits towards their degrees.</p>

134

<p>Source, please?</p>

135

<p>Hmmm... There seems to be a lot of finger-pointing and some misinformation in this thread. </p>

<p>I want to add a few things. </p>

<p>I am an adult with many years of work experience. I don't have the name of any colleges on my resume. I have my degree, university, the city/ state and honors. Frankly, I don't even have a lot of dates because of age discrimination. </p>

<p>As far as I know, Harvard Extension and Harvard College award different degrees. Harvard Extension-- like all extension programs I've seen-- awards the MLA or BLA or something similar. Harvard College awards BA or AB. The degree is not the same, the classes are not the same-- but they are both part of Harvard University. Just as Harvard Divinity School probably has fewer applicants per seat than the Kennedy School of Govt, so HES and Harvard College are different. There is nothing dishonest about putting down Harvard University.</p>

<p>Harvard Extension is not a distance school. It does not offer credit for life experience nor is it a degree mill. Comparing it to these kinds of schools is unfair. It is also not a state college. It is a college within Harvard University and is as valid as any other college within it. I think people who fail to recognize this are unfamiliar with it or have a personal stake in this issue. (After all, if I had successfully gone through the Harvard College competitive admissions process, if my family had paid a lot of $ and I had studied for 4 years to have a 'Harvard (College)' degree, I may resent those who I deem are claiming the same credential without having gone through the same process. Part of my identity would likely be wrapped up in the <em>exclusivity</em> of that degree and I might not want to broaden its availability.) That said, if I had a degree from HES, I wouldn't hide it on a resume-- but I'm also not sure why I put down 'HES' since, frankly, I don't have the name of ANY colleges down on my resume. I would write "MLA, History, Harvard University, Boston, MA." (And I happen to have a degree from a competitive college that has a counterpart within the same university that is much less competitive.) </p>

<p>Now, I want to address some comments about what Harvard College students do after classes.... I also work in journalism. Harvard College does not offer a journalism degree. (HES does, by the way.) Frankly, despite all the wonderful <em>experience</em> liberal arts students try to use to substitute for a degree in the field, I have found them completely lacking. They often know nothing about journalism ethics. (Boy, could I tell you stories!) They absolutely know nothing about journalism law-- and forget their equipment skills. Now, I have no problem with a liberal arts student who goes on to get a graduate degree in journalism (or communications). But I wouldn't want to hire a kid right out of Harvard College. Ideally, I would love to see that kid get a journalism degree from Extension (or somewhere else-- say Mizzou or Syracuse) and reapply. The combination of journalism classes and a strong academic background (in history, science, government, etc.) is ideal.</p>

136

<p>tokenA:</p>

<p>for whatever reason, sakky's posts have a vendetta against Cal-Berkeley, and he will ignore such pinging.</p>

137

<p>I didn't compare the Harvard Extension School degree to a degree from a paper mill. In fact, I consider it the equivalent to a Special Student Program, something which I actually participated in. I wasn't denigrating it. It's just not the same thing, the main reason being that it's pretty non-selective.</p>

<p>I just told that example because the woman listed a degree that she actually had and got fired for it. As far as I know, there was no explicit rule that all her degrees needed to be accredited. Her bachelor's was from a real college.</p>

<p>The best way to resolve this would be to ask Harvard the appropriate way to list it. Either way, I think it's best that your employer knows what it is before he/she hires you.</p>

138

<p>Dear all,</p>

<p>first a disclosure: I am a student at HES working on a Masters degree of Management of Information technology.</p>

<p>Just a few points i'd like to make, and I'd love to hear some discussion on them:</p>

<ol>
<li> If you are concerned about the selectivity and exclusivity of your degree program, you probably picked a career path that is WAY too competitive, thus digging your own hole. I went to a four year university and majored in Business and computer science. After 12 years of professional experience working in consulting and high Information Tech, I can say that there is a SERIOUS need for individuals who speak tech and business. There is a serious LACK of individuals who know how to manage people. I see a demand for competent managers and consultants who can speak the languages of Business and Technology. A very close friend of mine who works in BioTechnology says the same is true in this industry.</li>
</ol>

<p>I am not worried about differentiating myself by boasting "Harvard College" or "Harvard University" . I am very very interested in taking courses taught by Harvard and other professors who have insight and experience in my field, who can add value to my education by teaching very exceptional content and sharing their first hand experiences, all with Fortune 500 companies in the North east, Bay Area and Europe. One of the partners of a very prestigious consulting company was in one of my classes last semester. The discussion which he and a multitude of respectable professionals in Technology, all attending this class, seeking the Masters in IT degree was excellent. </p>

<ol>
<li><p>Given the current situation for the need in the United States for individuals with Advanced Degrees now and in the future given the Baby Boomer generation begins retirement THIS YEAR 2008 ( meaning many of old corporate executive positions will be opening up ) we need as many Americans working with Advanced Degrees as possible in order for our country to remain competitive.</p></li>
<li><p>How many of you have taken a look around to see the amount of Chinese, Indian, European and other International students which make up graduate students in the US? 60-80% of them are not US born, and will go back to their country with an advanced degree from a US university, adding to the GDP of their country, taking a part of their country's future. They are not encumbered with an obsession of legacy and tradition like many of you are. They value education, on top of this they value an American education, and on top of this they value , an American education from an Ivy league institution, such as Harvard. </p></li>
</ol>

<p>I am personally concerned for those of you who wish to berate Harvard for HES, or any other university for doing something similar, instead of commending the institutions for creating GREATER ACCESS to Advanced education. </p>

<p>I believe you(negaters) all are living in a plastic bubble, and will be greatly shocked as to the way the global economy takes shape over the next 5-10 years, and how the US will be suffering greatly for the illusions we are creating about ourselves, some of those exemplified in this thread. </p>

<p>We need as many US citizens ( American born or not ) to obtain as much Advanced education as possible if we remotely wish to remain competitive as a country when faced with what we have ahead.</p>

139

<p>"I went to a four year university and majored in Business and computer science."</p>

<p>It's worth noting that this thread got started because someone was considering turning down an undergraduate degree at a 4-year university to enroll at Harvard Extension School. I still think that's unwise. As I said, I personally enrolled in a Special Student Program after I got a bachelor's degree as I was changing fields. I didn't receive a degree, and no one particularly cared that I wasn't getting a real degree. However, if I didn't have a bachelor's degree at a 4-year college I think I wouldn't have been looked at the same way by employers.</p>

140

<p>
[quote]
Still pinging sakky to back up his claims in another post (which are now quite incredible to me now that I have seen take the position he is taking here about accurate statements of fact).

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Is there a problem,tokenadult? Why don't you specifically state what topics you are specifically referring to? </p>

<p>
[quote]
I don't remember that from the story, but I'll take your word for it.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Don't take my word for it. Instead, read the link that I posted where her biography is discussed in detail. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Imagine where all older women who are looking for a job fear this and all report their age lower by five years. Eventually the companies catch on and start adding 5 years from whatever the number women give them. Women, then, have to substract their age even further to adapt to this change. Soon enough companies will hire fetuses who have grown kids in college. LOL! I'll be soon competing with second-trimester unborn for job.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>In the long run, that may indeed happen. But guess what? As Keynes would say, in the long run, we're all dead. What really matters is whether you can get a job right now, not how one might get a job 10 years in the future. </p>

<p>On a more practical level, the fact of the matter is, women have been doing this all the time throughout history. Honestly, what is the whole point of the entire multi-billion dollar cosmetics and fashion industry if not to make people look more beautiful than they actually are? </p>

<p>
[quote]
uh? So you are saying as long as nothing is on the book, then it's fair game. And here I thought employers have rules on the book that says something like, "Sign Here if everything you have given us is the truth." Well in that case, I can just pretend I'm fluent in 15 languages because it's within my right to do so and I'm sure that there is no rule that forbids me from disclosing the accurate number of languages I'm fluent in. Since I'm right in doing this, companies can't fire me for doing so...It's my right...uh? Does this make any sense to anyone else beside sakky?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>No, the 2 situations are quite different. In the case if a employer asks whether you are fluent in a particular language and you say "yes", when in fact you are not, then that IS a lie. But if nobody ever specifically asks what your age is, then you are free to give whatever impression you want.</p>

<p>Again, compare the situation to marketing. If somebody specifically asks McDonalds how many calories are in a Big Mac, then the company has to answer truthfully. But if nobody asks, then McDonalds is free to try to make the Big Mac look as healthy as possible, even if it is not. That's how marketing works. You are attempting to accentuate the positive and hide the negative. </p>

<p>I hope that makes sense to you. Corporate marketing departments do this every day as a matter of course. Companies spend billions of dollars every year in trying to make themselves look as good as possible. Is this really such a controversial point? </p>

<p>
[quote]
I still think you have to write Harvard University Extension School on your resume'.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>No you don't. You can write anything you want as long as it is not an outright lie. </p>

<p>As a case in point, if I get an MBA from the Harvard Kennedy School of Government, I am free to say that I have a master's degree from Harvard, because I do. I don't have to make any mention whatsoever of KSG if I don't want to. </p>

<p>
[quote]
And you don't have your ethics straight. If you are going for the 'eat-them-before-they-eat-me' attitude, then stick with it. I actually understand and can sympathize with that. But don't defend yourself with the "I have never once advocated the violation of any actual rules" bullcrap. If reporting accurate information about your identity is not an "actual rule," then what the hell is? You are making yourself look like a hypocrit.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Uh, no I am not. There is a clear distinction between following the ACTUAL RULES and following some other code of conduct for which no rules exist. </p>

<p>To wit: I have never actually advocated actual LYING, which specifically means specifically answering a question falsely. But if they NEVER ask the question, then you are under no obligation whatsoever to volunteer any information. </p>

<p>Here's a practical example. Let's say you graduate from HES. So, if an employer specifically asks you whether you graduated from HES, you say "yes". After all, you cannot say "no", because that would indeed be a lie.</p>

<p>But if they never ask the question, then you are under NO obligation to tell them. NONE. </p>

<p>In other words, you only have to follow the actual RULES. There is no actual rule that states that you must tell all employers that your degree is from HES. If you disagree, then please show me the rule. Point to the rule that states such a thing.</p>