Would you have done this?

Applying to College
21

<p>
[quote]
loslobos71: Are you bent upon proving that you certainly did go to or attending a university that realy doesn't do a good job educating.</p>

<p>jbug I think this is a very good proof that your friend indeed made a bad decision.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I will be attending a pretty good school. Certainly no Ivy though. I wouldve given a lot to be able to attend UMich.</p>

<p>Ivies arent everything you know. I could anecdotally (yawn) give the example that my mother attended an ivy and my father attended a 3rd rate state school because he couldnt afford an Ivy, yet my father is MUCH more successful. But it wasnt Harvard so it doesnt count, right?</p>

22

<p>loslobos71:</p>

<p>I hope you are not a girl otherwise you will sound like such an idiot.
You are discounting your Mother's Ivy degree just to prove your point which is not worth any.</p>

<p>Your father might just be more successful in your eyes just becuase he had to work and your mother didn't as she might be taking care of studpid you so that you can at least make it to the college you actually ended up going.</p>

<p>Please give respect to your Mother who was able to attend an Ivy school which you seems to be unable to make it even with legacy at your back.</p>

23

<p>Parentofivyhope really believes that everything at ivies > everything else... (He/she probably didn't even go to an ivy league college due to his/her bad grammar and stupid logic. He/she has no right to judge people solely based on whether they attended ivy league colleges or not)</p>

24

<p>I sure didn't go to Ivies otherwise I wouldn't be that stressed out for my Daughter.</p>

<p>But that doesn't mean I'll degrade the institute. Loslobos71 tried to show that her mother even though went to an Ivy school actually didn't do anything in her life was not a logical statement.</p>

<p>I never said or will say that Stanford, MIT or CIT is anyway less than HYP.</p>

<p>I also have found Olin remarkably good and interesting college and will hope to see it rank very high in the coming years.</p>

<p>I'm very fond of UCB CS&EE department.</p>

<p>I resepct colleges like JHU, Duke.</p>

<p>So saying that I only consider Ivies to be evrything is very wrong.
I really value education. Neither I promote a college just becuase I went there and Nor I degrade one because I didn't attain my education there.</p>

25

<p>
[quote]

An engineer from UCB or U Mich is no different wrt an engineer from Asian TOP universities. These breed of engineers might be best suited to R&D individual works.</p>

<p>An Engineer from an Ivy or MIT/Stanford are much more rounded in their education and can rise to top positions much faster than their UCB, U Mich counterpart.</p>

<p>My 2 cents, I'm in no way undermining the quality of engineers from public Universities.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This is so insulting. Your two cents? You're not undermining the quality? I'm not arguing MIT/Stanford, but when you're grouping all the Ivies together and say hey, engineers from Ivies are better than engineers than UCB/U-M, that's just plain ignorance. I for one go to U-M, and most of my friends are in the engineering program. How would you know if they are any less rounded than say those at Brown?</p>

<p>You want some examples? Go to the Engineering U-M website, look at their class listings, and then look at listings for classes available in the LS&A for U-M. MOST OF THOSE CLASSES ARE AVAILABLE FOR PEOPLE IN ENGINEERING. In fact, I have friends who are majoring in some type of Engineering, and minoring in everything from English, to Philosophy. In my group of friends, we even have an engineer in Pre-Med. The fact that there's no specific program, or route allows the students to choose if they want to take more Engineering classes or more of a liberal arts focus while in the engineering college.</p>

<p>
[quote]

I hope you are not a girl otherwise you will sound like such an idiot.
You are discounting your Mother's Ivy degree just to prove your point which is not worth any.</p>

<p>Your father might just be more successful in your eyes just becuase he had to work and your mother didn't as she might be taking care of studpid you so that you can at least make it to the college you actually ended up going.</p>

<p>Please give respect to your Mother who was able to attend an Ivy school which you seems to be unable to make it even with legacy at your back.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>He/she is in no way saying that the Ivy degree is any less than what it is. The father worked harder than the mother, and is more successful. He/She is making the point that an Ivy degree isn't the END ALL OF DEGREES. Ugh, the ignorant point of views that you spit out is insulting to anyone with half a brain to comprehend it.</p>

26

<p>"This is so insulting. Your two cents? You're not undermining the quality? I'm not arguing MIT/Stanford, but when you're grouping all the Ivies together and say hey, engineers from Ivies are better than engineers than UCB/U-M, that's just plain ignorance. I for one go to U-M, and most of my friends are in the engineering program. How would you know if they are any less rounded than say those at Brown?
"</p>

<p>It is very logical, The Engineers at Columbia. U. Penn or even Yale are much diversified group than the Engineers at UCB.</p>

<p>It is not underminning the education. UCB produces one of the best bunch of R&D engineers and their is no doubt about that.</p>

<p>But if someone is really more interested in Mangement Jobs then a degree from Ivies in Engineering actually will provide beter prospects.</p>

<p>Why don't you do some homework by looking at career placement of the two Universities?</p>

27

<p>
[quote]
</p>

<p>It is very logical, The Engineers at Columbia. U. Penn or even Yale are much diversified group than the Engineers at UCB.</p>

<p>It is not underminning the education. UCB produces one of the best bunch of R&D engineers and their is no doubt about that.</p>

<p>But if someone is really more interested in Mangement Jobs then a degree from Ivies in Engineering actually will provide beter prospects.</p>

<p>Why don't you do some homework by looking at career placement of the two Universities?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>You're talking about an ease of switch. If you wanted to, you can easily switch out of the engineering college to Ross, which in undergraduate is #5 in the nation. With the exception of HYP, general job placements for UCB and U-M are right up there with most of the Ivies. </p>

<p>You are undermining the education because you basically said, yeah, UCB and U-M are great at R&D, but even then, those from Ivies/Stanford/MIT will still rise faster. Education is one thing, work ethic is another. Which is the point that loslobos71 was trying to make.</p>

28

<p>What I was trying to stress is that there is a difference in the education at Instittute like Stanford, MIT, HYP and Ivies and the public universites like UCB or UC-M.</p>

<p>The difference in the environment, personality development, and overall education.</p>

<p>There is no doubt when it comes to teaching Engineering UCB or even UC-M will do a lesser job than the so called elite institute but in other departments i.e. providing the environment, personality or overall development; they will not be able to compare at par with the elite colleges and that what distinguish those institute.</p>

<p>My Daughter may or may not be able to attend these elite Universities but these do provide a better well rounded education than the large public Universities including UC-B or UC-M.</p>

29

<p>Cvjn, About the other Ivies comment, don't forget Wharton!</p>

30

<p>Also the question orignally asked that is it a wise decision? shows a disbelief to begin with.</p>

<p>I still feel that given no cost advantage at U-M Brown will provide a better overall educational experience and development.</p>

<p>And as you have agree that even it ranks low in Engineering that might not affect the work as work ethics is a different thing.</p>

<p>Then things that give you advantages in professional life
- Networking ( Brown > U-M)
- Post Graduate ( Brown will provide eddge for all programs excpet at Engg where it might be same )
- legacy Status for the next generation (Maybe you don't want Brwon but your child might)</p>

31

<p>I <3 Wharton. While it's part of U-Penn, in my mind, it'll be a seperate entity from them :)</p>

<p>
[quote]
- Networking ( Brown > U-M)

[/quote]
</p>

<p>It's kind of hard to prove that. Why? Brown's an Ivy. So what? U-M has the largest living alumni base in the world. They've got some of the highest endowments. Almost double of Brown. </p>

<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_US_colleges_and_universities_by_endowment%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_US_colleges_and_universities_by_endowment&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Harvard University $25.5 $28.915[2]
Yale University $15.2 $18.030[3]
Stanford University $12.2 $14.084[4]
*University of Texas System $11.610 $13.234[5]
Princeton University $11.207 $13.044[6]
Massachusetts Institute of Technology $6.712 $8.368[7]
Columbia University $5.191 $5.937[8]
*University of California $5.222 $5.733
University of Michigan $4.931 $5.652[10]</p>

<p>
[quote]

There is no doubt when it comes to teaching Engineering UCB or even UC-M will do a lesser job than the so called elite institute but in other departments i.e. providing the environment, personality or overall development; they will not be able to compare at par with the elite colleges and that what distinguish those institute.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>How can you even make that statement? There are great professors at all of those schools. I'm not even defending U-M here because they're known for giving grad students for intro classes, but that statement is so insulting to me as a college student not in an Ivy or one of the "elite" colleges.</p>

<p>I'm not denying that they have great professors, but your generalizations of other colleges that aren't Ivy's are just plain wrong, it makes me wonder if it really is your daughter's decision to go to an Ivy, or yours.</p>

32

<p>There seems to be some confusion here:</p>

<p>My idea of good education</p>

<ol>
<li>Have greate academics!! (both Brown and U-M provide this)
It includes faculty and curriculumn. So I never said that U-M have bad faculty or curriculumn rather what I wanted to say that U-M actually do no lessa job than Brown when it comes to teaching Enginerring curriculumn</li>
</ol>

<p>But for me education doesn't end there.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Environment- Brown being private and smaller than U-M being public and huge provide a much better environment.</p></li>
<li><p>Personality devleopment - The student body at Brown is more heterogenous as it represents many more states than U-M or UC-B which have more homgenous environment. We would like to have such diversity.</p></li>
<li><p>Prestige - Brown certainly is more prestigious than U-M.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>So I never said academics at U-M or UC-B are any less but I don't just want academics because then the academics are no way any less at UC-LA or UC-SD or even at UC-D or UC-I</p>

<p>Then how can you will put one college or university ahead of the other.
Environment and overall development is the actual education we are looking for.</p>

33

<p>
[quote]
</p>

<ol>
<li>Environment- Brown being private and smaller than U-M being public and huge provide a much better environment.

[/quote]
</li>
</ol>

<p>I can't argue with you there. Brown is a lot smaller, and students will get more individualized attention as a whole. But not all students will be successful in an environment like that. My roommate last year absolutely hates that kind of system. He has a 3.8 GPA in college, and did Calc1 + Calc 2 at the same time, with a lot of other classes. He's at around 20-23 credits usually. He also went to high school with me, and did horrible because we went to a small school. He hates individual attention, and would rather explore things on his own. He does fine in college. </p>

<p>
[quote]
3. Personality devleopment - The student body at Brown is more heterogenous as it represents many more states than U-M or UC-B which have more homgenous environment. We would like to have such diversity.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I disagree. Did you do research on this? I'd like to see it if you did.</p>

<p>Cause my research shows that both Brown, U-M and probably UC-B have students from all 50 states.</p>

<p>Not only that, Brown only has students from 68 different countries. U-M has students from 84 for Undergraduate, and 114 for overall. I'm pretty sure that means U-M is more diverse as well. I didn't bother to check UC-B but it's probably pretty close to what U-M has. </p>

<p>Brown Facts and Figures - <a href="http://www.brown.edu/Administration/Admission/gettoknowus/factsandfigures.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.brown.edu/Administration/Admission/gettoknowus/factsandfigures.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>U-M Facts and Figures -
<a href="http://sitemaker.umich.edu/obpinfo/files/umaa_stuchar.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://sitemaker.umich.edu/obpinfo/files/umaa_stuchar.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>
[quote]
4. Prestige - Brown certainly is more prestigious than U-M.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Sure, if you're looking at the LS&A. If you look at Ross, or the Engineering school, I disagree. Ross is one of the top business programs in the nation, often ranked in the top 5-6. Engineering is often ranked in the top as well. Since I'm more Business focused, I don't know the exact rankings, nor do I have the energy to go look for it at the moment. </p>

<p>As a whole, I'd put Brown and U-M on close to the same level, with Brown taking the lead in parts of the United States, while U-M being better on the international community.</p>

34

<p>ParentOfIvyHope: your misinformation is appalling.</p>

<p>For one, how can you say that one will receive a more well-rounded education at Brown? Brown has an almost completely open curriculum; breadth requirements at universities are to ensure that a student gets breadth in knowledge, yet Brown doesn't require it (only a writing course, I believe).</p>

<p>1) The academics at Berkeley, UMich, and Brown are no different. Would it make any difference to tell you that when it comes to elite colleges, it's quite common that one college will train another's professors? For example, various alumni of Berkeley are professors at Yale, Harvard, MIT, Stanford, Brown, and more. Likewise, many alumni from Yale, Harvard, Mit, Stanford, etc. are now professors at Berkeley. Same would probably go for UMich. Both have distinguished faculty in every field -- some great professors, some mediocre professors, some okay professors, as at any university, including Brown. So, there's part one down of the 'great education' caveat.</p>

<p>2) This is completely dependent on preference. Some prefer smaller environments, others larger. I personally would hate to go to a small school, and I and many others agree that at a larger school, there's simply more activity and such.</p>

<p>3) Why does geographic diversity matter in this instance? Does knowing that person X is from New York, while you're from north California, somehow engender "personality development"? I'd say no. Further, for the most part, people don't know where others are from. What's more important is ethnic diversity, which not only has an impact in appearance (skin color and the like), but also in customs and the like.</p>

<p>4) I dunno about this one. Brown may be an Ivy, but in the general population, it's not very well known. In academic circles, yes, it's very prestigious. But to most, it's not quite so common. UMich, on the other hand, has distinguished itself in almost every field and on top of that, as Cvjn said, has the largest living alumni network in the world; as such, it'd be generally more well known and thus (again, generally) more prestigious.</p>

<p>"So I never said academics at U-M or UC-B are any less but I don't just want academics because then the academics are no way any less at UC-LA or UC-SD or even at UC-D or UC-I"</p>

<p>Er, could you clarify that one?</p>

<p>"Environment and overall development is the actual education we are looking for."</p>

<p>True, but people at CC don't seem to realize that at the top, it's all dependent on preference. UMich, Berkeley, and Brown are all at the top.</p>

35

<p>"3) Why does geographic diversity matter in this instance? Does knowing that person X is from New York, while you're from north California, someone engender "personality development"? I'd say no. Further, for the most part, people don't know where others are from. What's more important is ethnic diversity, which not only has an impact in appearance (skin color and the like), but also in customs and the like.
"
Diversity and heterogenous environment is the key to natural selection.
The more diverse the group the better evolution will happen. </p>

<p>Why so claim U-M has students from 84 than while brown has from 68 countries? Because it matters.</p>

<p>Can you look up % of student body from Michigan and % of student body from outside of Michigan at U-M and the same for Brown to get the correct diversity factor.</p>

<p>What I said if only Academics are considered than the difference between UC-B, UC-LA and UC-SD nad the lesser known UC-D, UC-I will thin out.</p>

36

<p>
[quote]

Can you look up % of student body from Michigan and % of student body from outside of Michigan at U-M and the same for Brown to get the correct diversity factor.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Ugh, can't you do that? My computer loads .pdf's slowly... or can someone else do it at least...</p>

<p>In any case, Michigan is a public school, while Brown is a Private. They have an obligation to their in state residents, while Brown doesn't have that. I honestly can't imagine that Brown is more diverse than Michigan though. </p>

<p>In any case, this is what I've pulled up so far</p>

<p>For U Mich</p>

<pre><code>* Undergraduates from all 50 states and over 80 foreign countries; over one-third from outside the state of Michigan
* Freshmen from over 1650 different high schools
* 25% of undergraduates are African American, Hispanic American, Native American, or Asian American
* 4% are international students
* Ratio of undergraduate men to women approximately 50/50
* Student body of 25,555 undergraduates and 14,470 graduate and professional students
</code></pre>

<p>For Brown -<a href="http://www.brown.edu/web/about/facts/admission"&gt;http://www.brown.edu/web/about/facts/admission&lt;/a> </p>

<pre><code>2006 2007 2008 2009 2010
</code></pre>

<p>New England 25 26 24 23 19
Middle Atlantic 28 28 27 29 28
Southern 11 11 12 13 13
Midwest 8 8 9 7 7
Central 1 1 2 1 1
Mountain 3 2 2 3 2
Pacific 15 14 16 15 17
International 9 10 9 9 10</p>

<p>so yeah, if you want to use that people inside Michigan are all the same clones of each other, sure, Brown is more "diverse"</p>

37

<p>True: People inside Michigan are more similar to each other than they are with people from say San Francisco.</p>

38

<p>I think you got the point that public university have the obligation to fullfill so it cannot be diverse.</p>

39

<p>I've lived all over the world, and ended up at Michigan for the past few years of my life. I'm pretty sure I'm not similar to people who've lived in Michigan all their lives. </p>

<p>So at most, I can give you that Brown is more diverse than Michigan. </p>

<p>Academic wise, they're similar and can't be ranked above one another.</p>

<p>Environment, is more of a personal preference. </p>

<p>Prestige, depends on which college you go to and where you plan to work. </p>

<p>I'm pretty sure U-M has Brown beat on networking because of the largest alumni connections in the world. </p>

<p>So there you have it. They're basically similar/same in almost every aspect except really the environment which is still a personal preference. </p>

<p>Now why is Brown that much better than U-M? Cause it's an Ivy?</p>

40

<p>You've never even stepped on U-M's campus have you?</p>

<p>Have you even seen the amount of diversity in there? You have numbers, but they can be misleading. </p>

<p>I can pretty much guarantee you that U-M is just as diverse as Brown. </p>

<p>Numbers don't lie, but they can mislead.</p>