<p>
</p>
<p>Meanwhile, this thread is dominated by postings in opposition to those posters who seem to be mostly absent from this thread. The disdain for any possibly pre-professional major other than visual and performing arts is quite obvious here.</p>
<p>^^^ We get a good number who go to public universities here. I graduated from one myself (physics) and my SAT scores were within 70 points of each other (math high). My English classes were still tough. Calc? Not so much.</p>
<p>There are some fields generally considered easy academically (elementary ed comes to mind), but to actually do well in the field, one still really needs talent. I do just fine teaching high school (math or science), but donât dare put me in the elementary school. The mere thought gives me shivers.</p>
<p>I am talking about a community college where I teach four to six writing based courses a year from comp through advanced lit courses. Out of five classes this semester, over 100 students, I think I gave eight Aâs. my colleagues are no easier. Intro classes require seven papers mandated by our faculty senate. At least 20% of the students canât even get the requisite papers done and get Fâs. How is that easier than the STEM course?</p>
<p>Echoing pizzagirlâs comments â seriously, the only hard classes at publics (which is what my son happens to attend) are STEM? Sure, the big intro weed-outs kick kids in the seat of the pants and shock them with low grades. But upper level foreign language, philosophy, literature â not hard classes which push kids to grow significantly? I donât see it.</p>
<p>Anecdotally, my humanities prof spouse (at top 20 school) routinely sees kids in his classes who think, âI have a 4.0, I can ace this courseâ â who are amazed to discover they cannot write a well-structured, well-reasoned analysis. Low and behold, they get a B or B+ in what they thought was âbeneathâ them. </p>
<p>There are different strengths, and different kinds of intelligence. I couldnât do what STEM people do, and I dare say, they wouldnât excel at what I do. Neither is superior, just different.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>But which âliberal artsâ courses (note that âliberal artsâ includes science and math)? If you were majoring in some STEM subject, the H/SS courses you took would have been as breadth requirements, and you probably were not choosing the hardest of those courses, similar to how H/SS majors tend to choose ârocks for jocksâ type of courses for science breadth requirements.</p>
<p>I mean, introductory psychology, sociology, and economics are not generally difficult courses. But some sort of advanced literature course may be a different story.</p>
<p>The statistics are very clear as to what happens over time, in a very short time, in fact, regarding majors within a college. Far more students move OUT of the STEM majors than into them, and the this exodus is far more than for other majors.</p>
<p>When words like âI expect them toâŠâ thatâs analogous to âforceâ IMO. If youâre telling your kids they MUST reach a certain income right out of school or you wonât pay for their choice of major, thatâs âforcingâ them into a box. When youâre telling your kids that you wonât pay for entire genres of study, thatâs âforcingâ them into others. Call it what you will, but it seems like many here want to control their kidsâ adult lives through choice of career, and that can happen by taking away support as much as insisting on choosing one.</p>
<p>Where would we be without museums of art, music, and culture? We need people to run them, work there, set up exhibits, research them. Where would we be without town and city orchestras, club performers, town theaters, dance companies and art galleries? Where would we be without libraries, without BOOKS? SOMEBODY out there has the talent to do these jobs so that those of us who are untalented but appreciate the arts can enjoy them. Somebody needs to teach our kids languages, history, geography. Somebody needs to run afterschool art classes. Somebody needs to know how to design sets, to run a camera and so on. </p>
<p>If the world was full of only STEM majors and Ibankers, what a sad, colorless, uncreative world it would be. Thank the gods that some parents understand this.</p>
<p>mythmom, I have no doubt that there are some instructors at average to mediocre public institutions that require the students to put in great effort to receive an A. But from all I have seen, I have to believe they are the exceptions. Liberal Arts courses involve subjective evaluations, and it is very difficult to do those well, particularly for large numbers of students. So there would be downward pressure on the provision of rigorous Liberal Arts classes at public universities with large class sizes, especially in average to mediocre public universities where many of the students are lacking in ability and motivation. Also, that can create a bit of a feedback loop, where the classes are not rigorous and so the students put in even less effort, and the instructors respond to that by making the class even less rigorous, âŠ</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Sequenced prerequisites tend to make it hard to switch into many of those majors and graduate on-time if one has not been taking the prerequisites from the start.</p>
<p>For example, at Berkeley, physics has a seven semester long prerequisite sequence (six for those who are a semester ahead in math with AP credit), while history courses have no prerequisites (a student could conceivably complete the entire history major in three semesters of normal course loads, though that would still leave breadth requirements and credit unit requirements to finish).</p>
<p>Note that I am not saying that history is âeasyâ academically, just that making a late switch into the history major is more doable than making a late switch into the physics major.</p>
<p>ucbalumnus, I am sure the advanced literature courses would be rigorous, though I doubt the same is true at most public institutions for most other subjects in the Liberal Arts.</p>
<p>I also know that at many private institutions all of these courses are rigorous, and that may be true at the very best public universities such as Berkeley.</p>
<p>sseamon,Not sure where are you getting this from that most people here donât know that it takes all kinds of people in this world-STEM and non STEM. That we need artists,musicians too is just common sense. I find your implication rather insulting that engineers create a âsad, colorless, uncreative world.â Engineering and scientific exploration are the height of creativity and imagination.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Exactly. The supposition that STEM is âharderâ is whatâs obnoxious. And I was a math major myself. I used to look down at Comm Studies majors. And then I grew up, and got into the work world and realized â some of the stuff that was taught, that I thought was so âeasyâ to do â wasnât all that easy. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Yes, thatâs right, ucb. I, an econ and math major who has encouraged my kids towards econ, clearly scorn pre-professional majors other than visual / performing arts. Nice try!</p>
<p>Once the child is in college, hasnât the time for parents to heavily influence (even control) academic pursuits passed? Threatening to withhold support after a child is in college, a goal both parent and child pursued, is a potential life lesson in bad faith.</p>
<p>I think we need to respect our children, especially as adults, which might include choices they make that we do not whole-heartedly agree with. Yes, we can provide guidance, suggestions, and ideally attempt to mentor, as we watch them become adults. Itâs our childrenâs lives, not ours.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Thatâs not what she said. </p>
<p>She didnât say âengineers create a sad, colorless, uncreative world.â </p>
<p>Those engineers who scorn, scoff at, or dismiss the importance of the humanities â or who do think âoh, that stuff is so easy, anyone could do itâ? â They DO create a sad, colorless, uncreative world. Thankfully, most engineers Iâve known arenât like that at all. They value the humanities and donât think they are âeasier,â just different.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>At most public and private universities, you can find âeasyâ and âhardâ courses.</p>
<p>The recent Harvard cheating scandal involved a course that was widely considered an âeasyâ course.</p>
<p>I donât agree that thereâs a disdain for pre professional majors. I think posters who have kids pursuing other things are a bit defensive.</p>
<p>I know I have admiration for engineers, computer scientists and actuaries and accountants.</p>
<p>My only argument is that some kids are not cut out for those fields, and no amount of forcing will change that.</p>
<p>I think there is more disdain for âsoftâ fields as if business and money are all there are. </p>
<p>If we funded college as some countries do perhaps our discussion would be different.</p>
<p>I have difficulty with the idea if the finance major because I do think the banking industry is out of control like during the dust bowl period, but I also think there are wonderful kids going into those fields so nothing against individuals or their parents.</p>
<p>I also think the word passion might be a little silly, but what about motivation? Some kids are primarily motivated by providing for themselves. Nothing wrong with that. I live on Long Island, and itâs not easy to make it here. I really get that.</p>
<p>But other kids are motivated by the need to make the world a fairer, more beautiful, more lucid place. They may discover they have to sacrifice some material well being.</p>
<p>I have always been motivated by the live of literature. I think my own writing has netted under $50K for my entire lifetime. However, Iâve taught thousands of young people to appreciate literature, to write better, and to think more clearly. Sometimes I even share one of my poems with them. No, I donât make them buy a book of my piems.</p>
<p>Everyone tried to dissuade me from getting a PhD in English because the thinking was that there were no jobs and law was a more lucrative field. My parents, who were comfortable and didnât pay for college, refused to help with the one year if tuition required at Columbia (the next four years were fully funded) so I went to state u. Everyone I went to school with is employed. After 30 years everyone is still writing and still lives literature.</p>
<p>I really donât see how I could dissuade my kids from following this path, though of course I do wish they could be richer.</p>
<p>I do earn more than the highest median salary listed.</p>
<p>I do also think that there is nothing more beautiful than a suspension bridge and blessings to those engineers who can design one and keep it from falling down.</p>
<p>(And that goes for all the other things weâre discussing. Iâm too ignorant to appreciate beautiful code, but thank goodness for the amazing minds who created the technology that allows me to write to you from an IPhone.)</p>
<p>Who are all these engineers that scoff at the importance of the humanities? And yes, sseamon did imply things about STEM .âIf the world were only full of STEM and Ibankers, what a sad,colorless, uncreative world it would be.â So, only humanities, theater people , etc. help to create a less sad, colorless, creative world? Please.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>And might some of these come from those who were shepherded into these fields from parents or dreams of bigger money? Not everyone can handle STEM. Some majors can be chugged through more easily (see elementary ed), but those with a true talent for them will still outshine those who donât have it. Someone chugging through a History degree (History is challenging) will seldom have the passion of a true History major (History comes easily). The difference can often be seen in the interview.</p>
<p>There are many jobs where one just needs a degree and it doesnât matter what itâs in. A degree (any degree) is rarely useless. Choose the field that matches the student.</p>
<p>I think itâs time for a count, and no counting the same posters over and over. Apparently many of us have time for this!</p>
<p>I think it will be easiest to count those parents who say they would refuse to pay, because I think there are very few.</p>
<p>sevmom-if people DO understand it takes all kinds of of people, then why are so many saying that they would not finance their studentâs humanities/arts major? Or maybe itâs kind of like NIMBYâs-not MY kids, as long as someone ELSEâS kids are the humanities and arts majors.</p>
<p>Perhaps a better statement on my part would be-if there were no arts/humanities majors, what a colorless world it would be. Engineers alone would not be able to create the rich arts and culture out there-not and do their jobs. We need the people who study arts and humanities in undergrad and grad school to fuel the ARTISTIC world. Engineers and scientists are not the ones doing that, am I not correct?</p>