<p>PS: sorry for. Typos. No, I don’t lower grades for that, LOL, but I also don’t encourage kids writing on a IPhone.</p>
<p>Mea culpa. It is embarrassing.</p>
<p>Of course, it is primarily the arts people who fuel the artistic world. That is just common sense. And yes,mythmom, bridges can be beautiful. We were just in Brooklyn and NY and H is a civil so he always enjoys seeing beautiful bridges ( and dams and dredged inlets,etc.). Many an off the beaten track quest to see engineering stuff-maybe one of the reasons both kids are engineers-that and Legos!).</p>
<p>Agree with Shrinkrap. I’ve seen VERY few posters here who would refuse to pay or would force a kid into a major they had no interest in whatsoever.</p>
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<p>How the heck does one graduate HS without this skill!</p>
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<p>No, you’re not. Believe it or not there are indeed engineers and scientists who end up becoming writers and artists, who design museum spaces, who become musicians or make documentary films. And conversely there are people who study arts and humanities who do end up working in tech fields as systems engineers and project managers, artists who become enamored with the entire maker culture (and who become experts in 3d printing and building circuitry and whatnot), musicians who finish their rock star careers and finish up doctoral programs in astronomy (though maybe Brian May counts as a techie who went to the artistic world? 
:))</p>
<p>Are they the exception? Sort of–but more and more we’re seeing an increasing number of people who use their training and strengths from one field in a seemingly unrelated area. Why are we putting people in boxes? Why draw this artificial line between the artistic world and the science/engineering world?</p>
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<p>The people who draw this artificial line are the ones who say - I won’t fund (or will strongly discourage) the artistic / humanities worlds but I will fund (or will strongly encourage) the science / engineering world because look, why, they have jobs right out of college and said jobs often pay better."</p>
<p>How many times have you seen kids on CC say - my parents are forcing me to study (insert STEM field or business) when I really want to study (insert other field)? If I had a nickel and all … Funny, I don’t see threads from kids on CC saying my parents are forcing me to study theatre / art / classics / English / French / art history when I really want to become a doctor / engineer. There is a presumption that certain fields are more “secure” than others – that doctor / engineer will always have a job but that a “soft” major won’t.</p>
<p>Oksy, I am up to post #195, and have counted 4 parents saying there are some majors they wouldnt pay for ( one said they woul not pay for underwater basket weaving), , 6 that said “yes, but”, meaning they would pay, but not $250,000 if it could be had for less, and one saying “yes, but” add a practical major, too.</p>
<p>I have also noticed * that*, as is often the case, there are not that many unique posters, it is often the same folks posting over and over. So I don’t know what percentage of posters the above numbers represent.</p>
<p>*Okay, English majors; where does the comma go?</p>
<p>"How many times have you seen kids on CC say - "…wait…are we counting what the students say ?</p>
<p>Agree with SlitheyTove. That’s why I used the word “primarily.” As he pointed out, there are lots of examples of crossover. And many engineers and scientists appreciate a good book or painting as much as the next person.</p>
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<p>PG, I agree that those are some of the people who are drawing the line. But they’re not alone–from the other side are posters who are saying that engineers and scientists aren’t becoming part of the artistic world. You yourself have posted a few times about Caltech in, uhm, not the most complimentary terms. 
Others like to beat up on conservatories.</p>
<p>Okay, as of post #388, I have counted a total of 5 or 6 absolute nos (one became a yes, but add a second major). One no was “no underwater basket weaving”, and one no was “no environmental science”. There were “6 yes, but not $250,000”.</p>
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<p>I think in most non-elite schools, it’s much easier to slip through a humanities or social sciences degree with decent grades and minimal work than in a STEM field. Because grading in the former is subjective and because a lot of schools now hire adjuncts whose continued employment is subject to student evaluations, the pressure is on them to grade easily. Yes, there will be individuals or even whole departments run by principled curmudgeons who have the nerve to expect hard work and quality results. But it’s pretty easy to do an end-run around such individuals or majors by just asking around and finding out who to avoid. </p>
<p>On the other hand, if you can’t get the right answer in a math or physics test, it’s hard to find a professor who will give you an A regardless – and, even if you do find a prof who gives easy tests, you will get stuck in the next class that presupposes such knowledge.</p>
<p>I also object two a solid line drawn between the two cultures. There are many creative scientists and engineers and artists and humanities better understand what’s going on in science and technology or their work doesn’t have much value.</p>
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<p>Not all high schools are that good, and college level standards for humanities writing are higher than high school level standards.</p>
<p>It’s interesting to see all the different perspectives on this.</p>
<p>There are some degrees I would not pay for if a particular student wanted to enroll in them. I live in NYC. Performing arts majors are a dime a dozen here. Many of them just aren’t that good. I’ve gone to a gazilion off off Broadway shows over many years for lots of reasons. I’ve always been flabbergasted by the number of people who are simply deluding themselves as to their talent. They can’t act. It’s painful to watch.</p>
<p>It may be even worse in music. When my kid was in high school, she had a friend whose parents were professionally employed in the music field. Her mom had given up performing herself and was the business manager of an orchestra. She told me that US colleges graduate more tuba performance majors each year than the number of tuba players employed by all of the professional and semi-professional orchestras in the US. She also said that whether you got the job depended on your audition. She sometimes sat in on them and she said it was absolutely painful to listen to many of the newly minted grads play. </p>
<p>I would hesitate to pay for a degree in acting. I think you can go to college, do a lot of acting in student productions, but major in something else. Spend your summers performing. Majoring in acting may help with networking a bit, but the bottom line is that it’s all about the audition. You don’t need a degree in acting to act. </p>
<p>For musical performance, I’d make sure the kid was an A level talent. If you can get into Julliard, do it. But, I’ve met kids who tried to get into every top program out there, failed, and are majoring in music performance in community college. That’s absurd, IMO. I’m NOT saying that there aren’t SOME genuinely talented kids in community colleges who are attending them for a host of reasons. But MOST of those kids who did try and fail just aren’t all that talented. They SHOULD be getting degrees in something else. They can still perform. Just major in something else.</p>
<p>Interesting points, jonri. I think I was assuming that our hypothetical student was indeed talented / good in his or her field of interest. That it wasn’t “can’t act way out of a paper bag and wants to be a theater major” or “can’t sing to save her life but wants to be a vocal performance major.” Maybe part of that is because I went to college with so many incredibly talented music, dance and theater majors – I recognize it’s a skill set I don’t have, and I can’t imagine thinking that it’s “easier” than, say, chemical engineering. Merely different.</p>
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<p>How many tuba performance majors and professional tuba players are there?</p>
<p>In any case, the same argument can be made for many majors. How many biology majors become biologists? How many history majors become historians? How many math majors become mathematicians (as opposed to financiers)?</p>
<p>Now, it is true that the threshold for eliteness to make a career out of one’s passion varies between subjects, as do the backup job and career options for using the knowledge and skills one learned in one’s college major (e.g. math -> finance, or acting -> electoral politics). But that is more of something that students and parents should find out early in order to make realistic plans around intended majors, not rule out specific majors.</p>
<p>I totally agree with jonri. I happened to have a friend who is a pretty gifted actor/director (worked in both capacities before, and has a degree in the filed). Guess what? He went back to school and got his degree in CS. He must be pretty good at what he does as he works for a very big and well know organization as DBA now. I would assume his income is much higher AND there is a job security. He still loves theater, and I am sure enjoys multiple performances that he and his wife visit, but doesn’t work in the field anymore. He has a very understanding wife that supported him over the years, at some point he decided that he needs 180 degree switch.</p>
<p>Talent is a given requirement to make it in this field, but in a lot would depend on pure luck too.</p>
<p>"Okay, as of post #388, I have counted a total of 5 or 6 absolute nos (one became a yes, but add a second major). One no was “no underwater basket weaving”, and one no was “no environmental science”. There were “6 yes, but not $250,000”.</p>
<p>Shrinkrap, you crack me up. That’s a lot of post counts, and I appreciate you doing the work! Count me in as the yes, but add a second major (unless you already counted).</p>
<p>My S2, who thought he wanted to be a theatre major, came up with jonri’s conclusion of: “You can go to college, do a lot of acting in student productions, but major in something else. Spend your summers performing. Majoring in acting may help with networking a bit, but the bottom line is that it’s all about the audition. You don’t need a degree in acting to act.”</p>
<p>He initially started off majoring in management, by default, knowing that he really wanted to major in theatre. I think he’s very good, and incredibly adorable and compelling (of course, I am the mom). We are getting our butts kicked, paying 10.6K for 10 months last school year for two kids in pricey colleges that don’t offer much merit aid. They were merely lucky to get in. We said…ohhh…major in theatre, but add something else. No threats, just groans. It’s pretty easy and not a huge amount of effort to double major. Would we really pay 250K for a theatre major? When it comes down to it, yes, but there’s really not a good reason not to double major, whether it is STEM or liberal arts, it’s doable.</p>
<p>S2 came to his own conclusion that he didn’t even want to double major in theatre. He’d have to take many classes he didn’t want to (like film history), and it wouldn’t help him get a job in theatre anyways. He decided to major in comp sci (he’s a techie, so it fits), and take the extra theatre classes he’s interested in, additionally. Seeing the very high starting salaries and the interesting job offers to his comp sci brother and girlfriend probably helped. There are plenty of tech opportunities in theatre anyways, comp sci isn’t merely programming.</p>
<p>“That’s a lot of post counts, and I appreciate you doing the work!” </p>
<p>Two patients didn’t show up this morning. One of the “benis” of working at the county. </p>
<p>“Count me in as the yes, but add a second major (unless you already counted).”</p>
<p>(checking spreadsheet…) Yes, you were in the initial count!</p>
<p>Well, it was a long time ago, but I think she said that there was a TOTAL of about 500 tuba players with professional and semi-professional orchestras. (By semi-professional, I mean the ones where the players are paid to perform but the level of compensation is so low that everyone needs a “day job.”) I think she said that there were more than 500 tuba performance majors graduating every year. So, every player in every orchestra would have to quit for there to be enough openings for all of them. Her other point was that many of these programs did not weed out players who are not good enough to get hired by any orchestra; these students honestly thought that they were competitive for jobs that they were completely unqualified for. Nobody had ever given them an honest appraisal of their talent.</p>
<p>And,no, I don’t think that majoring in tuba performance as the same thing as majoring in philosophy in terms of job prospects. More importantly, it’s the “mind set” of students in those majors. VERY few philosophy majors think they will end up teaching philosophy in college. EVERYONE tells philosophy majors from day 1 that it’s hard to get into a funded philosophy doctoral program and even harder to get a job teaching in college. According to my “source” the same basic knowledge is NOT given to performance majors at the lower level programs. In other words, if you go to Julliard, you’re constantly told how hard it is to make it. If you go to your local community college, you’re not.</p>
<p>However, giving music lessons is something anyone can do with no start up, though perhaps the tuba is a hard sell. </p>
<p>It’s also not that hard to segue into music education and/or arts administration.</p>
<p>Maybe that tuba player had to go all the way because she could give up the idea of being a professional tuba player.</p>
<p>However, schools should be more forthcoming. At Williams my son was told he shouldn’t be a music major by the chair and the dean. A few tears and on to classics, which was his next choice. I wanted him to do English at that point, but he wouldn’t hear of it. </p>
<p>Still, my point is that he was duly informed of his mediocre talent. It was a good and freeing thing.</p>
<p>If everyone becomes a CS major then there will be a job scarcity there, too.</p>
<p>Truly all the CS grads I know have been obsessed with computers from the first time they saw them. They can build them and began programming on their own before they got to high school.</p>