Would you pay full-tuition for these schools?

Parent Cafe
81

<p>“Having the savings gives you more options. It might mean not getting a discount but you can make the choice while those that don’t have the savings have to take a school that offers a discount or go into debt.”</p>

<p>And the savings can even be in the form of an “asset” (like a home). Assume that you had NO college savings, and the kid earned NO money during term or during summers to put toward school. But you had a $200k income, and owned a $500,000 home. A mortgage refi for $225k, 30 years at 4% would come in at $20,000/year, roughly one-tenth of your income. And paid off in inflated dollars in future years. Nothing “unaffordable” there unless there are other circumstances that make it impossible.</p>

<p>But whether that is a choice one would want to make is another issue entirely.</p>

82

<p>I’d pay for most of the above (and am doing so). Maybe not Tier 2 or City schools. And, there will be specialized reasons to pay for a less prestigious school if the program fits. But whether or not to pay depends upon whether the kid is psychologically prepared to take advantage of the advantages that the tippy top schools offer. It’s not clear that it makes sense to pay $55K per year to go to Penn or Harvard to study studio art if the kid wants to be an artist. Especially if there are loans, go to a less expensive school or possibly a RISD that will really prepare one for the tough world they will confront.</p>

83

<p>Simple Life- curious about how your S managed to get merit money from MIT which offers need-based FA only. I have never heard of anyone at MIT losing financial aid unless the parents financial/employment status changed dramatically or unless another sibling who was in college at the same time graduated (thereby changing the EFC). Moreover, the very generous research subsidies through the UROP program tend to pay significantly more than the jobs available to work study students on other campuses… so although MIT is expensive, the risk of losing your aid is extremely small (unless you win the lottery, in which case I am very happy for you.)</p>

84

<p>Having gone through this twice, and seeing the available merit money for middle to upper-middle class income families drop considerably from 2005 (D1) to 2009 (D2), even though there is a non-quantifiable possibility that a full-pay Top 20 school at $50K+ would lead to a better education, i.e. a better post-ed job, I don’t think it’s worth it. </p>

<p>For a smart kid that can get accepted to a good flagship state U. with no merit, or a good private with maybe a 1/2 tuition scholarship, $30-$35K out-the-door should be max pay, still a lot of dough. But that’s just me. A great education at $20K/year is a bargain these days.</p>

<p>Those few students that are minority, poor & brilliant are more often than not going to be the ones that reap the benefits of free or nearly-free ed at these top-tier U’s. That’s the way it is.</p>

85

<p>^Do not have to be poor to get UG education for free. Need to work hard, no genius or being brilliant is required either.</p>

86

<p>^^Sorry, "Top 20 school at $50K+ would lead to a better education, i.e. a better post-ed job, I don’t think it’s worth it. " is not always true either. </p>

<p>And there are no general solutions to this. Everybody has their own circumstances, goals, work ethic, priority, finances,…the list is infinite. We can only share personal examples which may or may not be applicable to specific situation of every applicant.</p>

87

<p>Of course, no general solutions. This is my take on it, from my standpoint. And, certainly a student from a middle, upper-middle, or even high-income family can get a free UG education. But not from the top-tiers, with the caveat being an top athlete, which would be the hook. But ethnicity, low-income, and super high GPA & test scores will ring the bell at the Top 20 schools. That’s why I did not let D2 apply to the $50K+ schools. Our middle-class income would not garner any need-based aid, her stats are excellent but common with other applicants, and she’s not a state champion fencer! :)</p>

88

<p>State champion fencers aren’t going to get much scholarship money.</p>

89

<p>“That’s why I did not let D2 apply to the $50K+ schools.”
-Yes. My D. has applied only to UGs that she knew she would get close to full tuition. She did it on her own. She had good choice, including private. But she was not aspired to apply to Ivy/Elite, so her story will not be applicable to others who dream about very top schools.
D’s decision making also changed when she was choosing her Med. School. But at that point, I urged her to choose the best for her without price consideration, because we decided to pay after not paying for UG. Again at the Grad. School level, choices for each family vary a lot.</p>

90

<p>“Those few students that are minority, poor & brilliant are more often than not going to be the ones that reap the benefits of free or nearly-free ed at these top-tier U’s. That’s the way it is.”</p>

<p>Actually, at least at the Ivies, the big expansion in financial aid has been in “need-based” grants to those in the upper 20% of incomes. Grants have replaced loans. Caps have been placed on costs families can expect to pay for those below $180k. In some of the schools, the percentage of those receiving financial aid has increased, without any increase at all in the percentage of Pell Grant recipients. (Often those grants are small - they make the colleges look more generous, when in fact they make it up by raising tuition by a similar amount, and collect 90% of the list price from near-wealthy families.)</p>

91

<p>MiamiDAP–Hah, we did the opposite, paid for D1’s UG but she’s on her own for med school. Scary either way.</p>

<p>mini–I did not know that, but the skewing of percentages does not surprise me. Back in 2005, the only school D1 did not get accepted to–a decided reach–was Duke, but had she been accepted, she would have attended and as much of a neophyte I was at the time, we’d have paid it (loans, loans!), which I think was $45K total at the time. I guess you find a way for your kids.</p>

92

<p>Accepting low-income students is expensive. . For every additional low-income student a private college accepts, they can provide small amounts of financial aid to eight or more upper income ones, college 90% of the list price (and raise it every year), and look more generous, too.</p>

<p>For our family, this was all a non-issue. We couldn’t have paid full-price at any of them if we’d wanted to, and we didn’t want to. Luckily for us, the colleges both my d’s attended were very, very generous, for which are grateful.</p>

93

<p>jnm123,
“MiamiDAP–Hah, we did the opposite, paid for D1’s UG but she’s on her own for med school. Scary either way.”</p>

<ul>
<li>Ours was not opposite of yours as nobody paid for D’s UG (except if you consider that we as all residents of our state, are paying state taxes and some generous people created private scholarships at state schools). D. would love to re-pay some of it at some point of her life. Hopefully, she will be able to do so for both her private HS (also great Merit award) and state UG. D’s UG’s tuition was fully covered+ by Merit scholarships. That was primary reason why we decided to pay for her Med. School.</li>
</ul>

94

<p>@blossom (post#83),</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>I understand your skepticism. That is the common wisdom about MIT. It may even be posted on their website (I can’t recall for sure). We thought the same thing prior to my son’s experience. However, I can tell you that what he received was a merit-based grant. It was granted by a wealthy donor family, and the letter that notified him of the award (from the family) specifically mentioned that it was granted based on merit but that the amount would be re-considered in future years. The donor family has namesake college buildings in several states. In fact, prior to him ever receiving the grant, my family had commented on just how many buildings we saw on various college visits in this family’s name. So, it was ironic (and flattering) when he received this award.</p>

<p>We spoke to MIT’s FA office a few times prior to turning down the award. We did not ask them about all awards in general – only about my son’s specific award. It was in fact “merit-based with a need-based element.” We were told it was granted for merit-based reasons – ostensibly to recruit him, we guessed – but that there WAS a need-based element involved, in that (as you guessed) if anything substantial were to favorably change his family’s financial situation over the 4 years that he attended, his award COULD be significantly reduced.</p>

<p>And, our family’s financial situation WAS due to change over the 4 year period that he would be in attendance, in BOTH the ways that you surmised. His sibling would be graduating from college while this son was still in school AND I was strongly considering a big promotion (with pay raise) that I had been rejecting for years so that I could raise my kids as a single parent. (The MIT son is the youngest, freeing me up to take that promotion.) I asked MIT’s FA people about the effect that each of these circumstances would have on his grant. They said that it could go either way – he MIGHT be able to keep the grant … OR, (more likely) he might lose an equivalent portion of the grant to equal the income freed up by the sibling’s college graduation and/or by any pay raise I might take. So, as I said, it was definitely NOT a sure thing for the next 3 years.</p>

<p>Personally, I was willing to take the risk (AND forgo the promotion for 4 years) so that my son could attend MIT. But he insisted that I had sacrificed long enough and that he didn’t see the need to worry any more about money (since he had a handful of free-rides based solely on merit). Personally, I DO kind of wish that he had taken MIT up on their offer (except for the fact that I genuinely support his decision about his own education). I’m not sure he can truly understand, at his age, how big of a deal that was! But it was his decision to make. I gave him the facts. He made the decision.</p>

<p>For what it’s worth, he got similar grants from several other schools that don’t advertise such things – like Wash U, Rice, and Vandy. I talked to each of their FA offices, and the answers were all the same. Those other schools DO advertise a small handful of full-merit scholarships. For some reason, my son did not receive one of those from any of those schools. Instead, he received the equivalent of a free-ride on “merit-based grants with need-based elements.” </p>

<p>We were very grateful for, and flattered by, each award. But, it’s important to know that those very generous grants are not the same as equal amounts of scholarship money, in that they’re not guaranteed throughout the 4 years.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>FWIW, my son is not minority and not poor. A case could definitely be made for ‘brilliant,’ but more importantly, he’s (idk) exceptionally kind and humble and just, well, a really good person – which I THINK is what set him apart to be accepted by MIT in the first place. And probably also why, ironically, he turned down the acceptance – to help me get back on my feet financially – despite my urging that he do otherwise.</p>

<p>So anyway, you learn something new every day! My son cannot be one of the only ones who received such a thing. I am just guessing that these sorts of grants are given out by MIT every year in numbers significantly larger than ‘one.’ We just never hear about them. All we ever hear is that MIT gives need-based aid only. And, in actuality, this award WAS need-based no matter how you slice it. That’s why he chose not to accept it. The good news is, he’s very happy at the college he did choose. I’m glad! :)</p>

95

<p>Simple life- your son sounds terrific.</p>

<p>Thank you for your explanation. There are “awards” like this at every university- even ones that give need only FA. However, they are not Merit awards (I am not suggesting that your S is not meritorious) in the way that Merit is understood in the financial aid world, or the way it is described on this board. Financial Aid officers have discretion in how they package an award- how much is a loan, how much is an outright grant, how much is in work/study, etc. But a school which is “need only” will not hand out a grant to a kid whose EFC exceeds the cost of attendance- much to the dismay of thousands of disappointed families every April who were hoping that Harvard or Brown, or yes, MIT would see that Johnny is so exceptional that he would be worthy of a “merit award”, independent of the families documented financial need.</p>

<p>So to innocent readers beware- it is great that SimpleLife’s son qualified for such an award as part of his financial aid package. But MIT does not give FA to families who do not qualify, even though there are discretionary awards donated by generous families which can go to meritorious students AS PART OF their financial aid.</p>

<p>I’m sure son will do great things with his life. But it’s important to communicate clearly so that families don’t assume that there are “secret” merit awards at need only colleges… and somehow their kid has been shafted by not winning one of them. There are wonderful merit award schools which would be happy to take high performing students and pay them to attend, quite apart from the family’s financial need which may or may not exist.</p>

96

<p>It’s all just a bunch of numbers anyway. The list price is artificial, and has no necessary relationship to the cost of educational and other services provided. The scholarships and aid - be they merit or need-based - are simply discounts off the artificial list price (which you can count upon to go up every year). There are schools charging the same $55k a year where the “cost” of services provided range from $20k per student to $85k per student. (And what goes into those services is suspect as well - does the maintenance of the heated parking lot for the faculty go into the equation? the 18-hole golf course? the arboretum?) All smoke and mirrors. The colleges are hoping you don’t see through it. </p>

<p>None of this matters really. All that matters is how much you (and your kid) have to pay, and how much in the way of loans is required to make attendance possible. Make believe scholarships and aid of whatever sort don’t exist, figure out what you are able/willing to pay, and stick to it.</p>

97

<p>blossom,
Thanks for your kind words about my son. He’s a keeper. Like so many others here, I’m very blessed.</p>

<p>You also said this:

</p>

<p>To be fair, I have communicated clearly about his award from the time I brought it up. I used exactly the same phrase that the MIT FA office used with us, both in print and on the phone: it was a “merit-based award with need-based elements.” This, btw, is the same phrase that Wash U and Vanderbilt FA used with us – so I just assumed it’s a common-enough phrase in FA circles. I sure didn’t intend to imply “secrecy” or that anybody else has been shafted by not winning one of them. In each case, we were told that the schools’ awards were granted “for merit-based reasons but that there were need-based elements” that could change the awarded amounts over time. And that’s what I tried to communicate from the start.</p>

<p>You also said this:

</p>

<p>I agree. That’s exactly the point I was trying to make in my original post on this thread. There ARE wonderful merit award schools that will pay big dollars for top-performing students. Those are the very awards that all of my kids have gone for, bypassing other awards from ‘more prestigious’ schools which were either less in dollar amount, or the same in dollar amount but tied in with ‘need-based elements.’ My kids have all taken the full-tuition or free-ride route, on merit alone – by attending schools that others might not consider the ‘most prestigious’ or the ‘highest ranked.’ In our minds, they’re prestigious enough and ranked high enough, and the kids have enjoyed fantastic opportunities.</p>

<p>And that is why I say that I would not pay full tuition for any of the schools on the OP’s list. For kids who can get into the schools on the OP’s list, there are likely going to be greater scholarship awards at other very fine schools. The tradeoff, in my opinion, is not worth the added cost. (Unless, perhaps, you’re filthy rich and cost is truly no factor – not now and not in your future retirement.)</p>

98

<p>"For kids who can get into the schools on the OP’s list, there are likely going to be greater scholarship awards at other very fine schools. The tradeoff, in my opinion, is not worth the added cost. (Unless, perhaps, you’re filthy rich and cost is truly no factor – not now and not in your future retirement.) " We are not filthy rich. We do pretty well-but we drive 10 year old cars and are not into "bling ".It’s all a matter of choices .My D turned down 2 full scholarships at lesser schools to attend Harvard ,and we are paying 100% . She is happy to attend Harvard ,and works hard .I always will wonder if it was the best choice -who knows ? We have 4 kids ,BTW . She is the youngest .</p>

99

<p>^I totally agree, fauxmaven. It is all a matter of choices. I only meant to state my family’s opinion. We have no disrespect for other families’ decisions to do otherwise. Everybody’s different. And there are certainly no right answers to the OP’s question!</p>

<p>(In our case, we COULDN’T have paid full price. So that option was off the table.)</p>

<p>(Oh. And on the flipside of what you stated … I think I will always wonder whether my son made the right choice regarding MIT. I think we all make the best choices we can given what we know at the time.)</p>

100

<p>

</p>

<p>@blossom, It just occurred to me what you might have been saying! Maybe you were thinking that my son’s EFC was around 0 and that this was SOLELY a need-based award? (I don’t know why I didn’t catch your drift the first time around. I think I focused on the “will not hand out a grant to a kid whose EFC exceeds the cost of attendance” part. My son’s EFC did NOT exceed $54K, which was the cost of attendance. It didn’t come anywhere near $40K, which was the cost of tuition alone.)</p>

<p>Just to be clear, my son’s EFC was what you would expect for a middle-to-upper-middle-class family with one sibling already in college. I’m not going to get too specific, but it was in the ballpark of $20K. His grant was in the ballpark of $54K. It covered room, board, everything. This was not solely a need-based award. A large portion of it WAS independent of demonstrated financial need. So, it WAS a surprise to us. And I think it would be a surprise to any family – since people always say that MIT gives only need-based aid.</p>

<p>We believed that exceptionally meritorious students were chosen by the donor family to receive the award. Well, that’s what the letter said. My son WAS exceptionally meritorious. But it still surprised us – because in our minds ALL of MIT’s accepted students are exceptionally meritorious.</p>