Would you send your student to a State Flagship w/upcoming budget cuts?

Parents Forum
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<p>I'm curious to hear from other parents who have gone though this in their student's home state. We're located in Texas. I've got a son who plans on studying engineering. He attends an excellent prep school and takes the most rigorous curriculum he can. He's got excellent focused multi-year EC's w/leadership, ACT scores of 33 math, 32 reading, 34 science and a 10 on his essay and his college adviser tells me he's got wonderful rec letters from his AP physics and AP calculus teachers, along with hers. He needs major aid, either merit or need-based. </p>

<p>Though he really is adamant he doesn't want either UT Austin or A&M (due to the size) and he's not in the top 8% for auto admit in fall of 2011, with a class of 40, that's just the top 3 or 4, his college adviser strongly suggested he apply to one of those as they have top ranked engineering programs. She told me that no college adviser knew what UT or A&M would do w/that extra 2% of spaces. I figured they'd go for OOS students w/great stats, they get a ton of apps, but she wasn't so sure. </p>

<p>So he applied to A&M and surprise, surprise a couple weeks went by and he heard he was admitted before Christmas and then a couple of weeks after that was notified of a scholarship that coupled w/the need based aid I know we'll get now puts A&M down as a financial safety. It's not the experience he thinks he wants, but he's having a hard time pinpointing what he wants and he's the type of kid who will probably do well where-ever he ends up. He's that easy going, happy all the time, get along with everybody type kid. I told him he'd need to think long and hard about turning A&M down due to the quality of the engineering department (though I firmly believe you can get a good education just about anywhere, engineering adds a new dimension), and that we are at least going to visit the school. </p>

<p>But now, the state of Texas, in it's great short-sighted vision has thrown out a budget w/huge cuts in all levels of eduction. This includes the Texas Grant program (which is our half-hearted program along the lines of the Bright Futures or HOPE or any number of already better state plans), which I was hoping he'd get. The scholarship makes up for that but I'm concerned that if he chooses to attend, what if the scholarship is cut for future years? He literally could not go. Parent Plus loans are not an option, I work 50 plus hours a week, w/2 part-time jobs, but it's on a day by day basis, there will be a time when even w/the help the state provides, his father won't be able to stay home alone and I'll have to quit. </p>

<p>Anybody from other states that have gone through this, do they cut funding for students already attending, or is it normally only for new, future students? </p>

<p>It is a sad day, when qualified students have to attend an OOS school, because they are priced out of their state schools. I do not understand how Texas feels that having an uneducated population will be good for the economy in the future, we already have one of the worst HS graduation rates in the nation. It's one thing to hold the line, but another to start cutting, there has got to be another way. And they want to start closing some CC's too, leaving no options for kids without the stats and resources in those areas. Mine will be able to to go, even if not in his home state, but other people's kids deserve a chance too.
In my son's scout troop there are many upcoming juniors and seniors who have decent grades, good work ethics who may very well end up attending college in Arkansas and Louisiana because the COA is so much less there. And I'm not just talking about the flagships universities, even if you just take in-state tuition and fees, room and board, not the whole COA of attendance it's 15,000 to 20,000 a year, freshmen are normally required to live on-campus and Texas is so big many residents are not with-in commuting distance of an university or even a CC.</p>

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<p>Hmm. Sounds just like California! Unfortunately, we are basically in the same boat. D has been accepted to an in-state public school and an out of state private. We fully expect that the out of state will be able to offer more finaid + a better likelihood of being able to complete the degree in 4 years (no longer a likelihood in the California public). If I were you, I would read the fine print and if they cannot guarantee that the money will be available all four years, it may be better for your child to go elsewhere.</p>

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<p>I wish the best of luck to you in making your decision. What other schools has your son applied to?</p>

<p>Hopefully the budget cuts won’t get worse in Texas. it is a common scenario across the country. Georgia is facing a similar situation. The new Governor has proposed a 10% cut in funding to the University system and there are projections that the lottery sales are not keeping up with the costs of the HOPE scholarship.</p>

<p>For Georgia students, HOPE has kept a lot of top students instate as opposed to going to highly ranked out of state like Duke or HYPS. Hard to turn down 4 years of free tuition in this economy.</p>

<p>So far my daughter is very happy at the University of Georgia. She is in the Honors program and working towards a dual degree. She has had no issues with getting the classes she needs, etc. We hope that this continues for her.</p>

<p>Depending on where else your son has applied, it might be hard to beat the deal that A&M is offering you. There is an active Alabama thread here on CC. Lots of high stat students from OOS have received very nice packages from Alabama and even more if they are in the engineering school.</p>

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<p>Most will tell you that you have to run through an online calculator before assuming you’ll get the aid you need. Even then, many schools calculate their own formulas. Try the calculators at finaid.org- the FM approximates the Fafsa and the IM reflects the CSS Profile. Neither figures you get are any guarantee. You may need, say, an extra 20k over what A&M has already offered- and only get a portion of it. He will likely also qualify for a Stafford Loan, $5500 first year and more for 2,3,4. You do have special considerations, if Dad is home, requiring care - and your job is day-to-day. You can ask the colleges how/when they want this info from you.</p>

<p>I would think you could also ask A&M how his grant could be affected in future years- in some cases, cuts to aid programs don’t take effect until a target date- or kids already promised some type of aid might be maintained on a similar level in subsequent years, depending. </p>

<p>It’s also important to try to learn more about what will really be cut- in CA, at the state U’s, they added to faculty courseloads, increased class size, froze fac salaries and some perks, etc. At some schools, they raise tuition. The more you can learn, the better. Good luck.</p>

<p>ps. one other thought: ithough he really doesn’t want a huge U, he still needs to consider the size of the eng program. After freshman year, many kids find that their individual program operates as a smaller entity.</p>

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<p>North Carolina (UNC) also facing budget cuts. </p>

<p>At Perdue’s request, UNC campuses submitted permanent state funding cut scenarios of 5 percent and 10 percent to General Administration, Thorp said. Chancellors also have been asked to consider potential cuts of up to 15 percent.</p>

<p>Michigan, too:</p>

<p>“”“Ann Arbor campus’ $316 million state appropriation is less than last year
U-M’s Ann Arbor campus will receive a $316 million appropriation from the state of Michigan in the budget bill that Gov. Jennifer Granholm signed into law Oct. 12. The appropriation is less than the campus received last year, but very close to what the university anticipated.”“”</p>

<p>UVA seems to be managing ok.</p>

<p>California is imploding. The UCB and UCLA aura will glow for awhile on historical reputation, but eventually the cuts will take their toll on research quality, institutional desirability, and future reputation.</p>

<p>Thus, all the once-great public alternatives are being whittled down. </p>

<p>The mystery to me is why now? We they (as we) living on borrowed financial time for a generation and never knew it? I suppose the relentless increase in the US debt over that period tells the story – we just borrowed our way to “prosperity” and, as long as we can print money to cover the interest, we can defer reckoning to another day . . . unless today is that day . .</p>

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<p>I think the top UC schools will do what private colleges have done all along–seriously fundraise to get a sizeable endowment that will protect the schools as state funding winds down. We just received some mail from UC Davis letting the alumni know that the school will be beginning a campaign hoping to raise a BILLION dollars.</p>

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<p>I don’t think sweeping generalizations are valid including the statements that one can’t graduate in 4 years. One needs to look at the specifics. Many publics are facing budget issues but the most pertinent question is how that would affect the particular student and the particular public U in the particular major. One needs to look at the particular private U as well since the majority of them face budget issues now as well. When comparing costs of public vs private it can’t be assumed that the expensive sticker price of the private will be more than the sticker price of the public since the private may be able to offset the cost and sometimes beat the cost through merit or need based aid.</p>

<p>To answer the question - yes, I’d still be willing to send my kids to one of the top few UCs - of course, subject to change as things progress. The reason I’m distinguishing these is not just for the academic reputation but because the state funding for them has less of an impact since the majority of their budget comes from elsewhere and I know that most students can graduate within 4 years if so inclined. I’d have more concerns at the CSU level but even then I’d need to understand the funding and operations of the particular one to see how cautious I s/b of sending a kid there. Some of the campuses are managing to the budget changes reasonably well and some may not be. An example is that SDSU, which had eliminated spring admissions due to budget issues, has just announced they’ll reinstate spring admits again since they’ve received some additional funding that allows them to.</p>

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<p>If this scholarship is a merit-based scholarship, I seriously doubt that merit scholarship money will end up being cut no matter how bad the situtation is. Most universities truly want the best students to attend, and they know that these merit scholarships are big enticements. If there are drastic cuts at state universities, they will let faculty go and eliminate smaller academic departments with low numbers of majors before they cut out merit-based scholarship money.</p>

<p>I know because this happened at my university about 20 years ago. Departments were eliminated but student scholarships remained intact.</p>

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<p>I feel confident that my flagship will survive the next four years without any serious cuts in the popular programs. If my child was pursuing a more obscure degree program then I might be worried.</p>

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<p>Just because there is a budget cut doesn’t mean that undergraduate scholarship aid will get cut. Since salaries make up a huge proportion of university budgets, that’s where the most “productive” cuts come from. Typically hiring is frozen, so that as people retire or depart, they aren’t replaced. This can lead to holes in the course offerings, but shouldn’t have drastic effects right away; almost no institution is doing a lot of hiring right now so faculty are tending to stay put, especially on the senior level. Sometimes salaries are cut (“furloughs”), staff are laid off, full-time faculty are replaced by poorly-paid “adjuncts,” benefits trimmed, etc. Things like building maintenance, landscaping, office supplies, etc., will probably be slashed severely. At UVA, where I teach, faculty are asked to put all teaching materials (the syllabus, course handouts, etc.) online; this saves the University on printing expenses.</p>

<p>Cutting scholarship aid to undergraduates who are already in residence doesn’t have nearly the same marginal impact. If your son can’t attend without the scholarship, the institution hasn’t gained anything, financially or otherwise, and has lost something, a highly-qualified student. The cost to the institution of giving the scholarship is not what it would cost you to send him there, since Texas A & M needs to offer the same classes, etc. whether or not your S is sitting there in them.</p>

<p>As far as the quality of flagship education goes: my sense is that these kinds of cuts are cumulative and don’t make a big difference in the undergraduate experience right away. If the economy doesn’t recover and the slump for public universities is permanent, then there will be a problem. It’s one thing to skimp on building maintenance for two years, another to do it for a decade. I suspect, or rather fervently hope, that disaster is still a few years away.</p>

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<p>Florida went through this a few years ago, and now things have stabilized and are looking up. During that time, I think the flagships cut waste, tightened up, found money in places they were not expecting. While Bright Futures has been cut back, (it is no longer 100% and 75%, rather a flat per credit hour grant), it is still quite good. Tuition has been going up, but merit aid has not been cut at FSU, more tuition money is going to financial aid and faculty positions, and bright students are still staying in state. </p>

<p>There has been hiring freezes, and some big ticket building projects delayed, but with recent turnarounds, faculty hiring is projected to resume.</p>

<p>D has not had any problems getting classes, no one has any problem graduating in 4 years, and in fact UF and FSU are intent on using MAP’s and flat rate tuition for up to 18 hours a semester to get more student OUT in 4 years. </p>

<p>I think UT and A&M are in a much better position than the U’s that are not flagships. And heck, I hear lots of students complaining about the cutbacks at their LAC’s, problems getting classes, taking classes they don’t need and never would have taken due to lack of available classes.</p>

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<p>Well, today is turning into a catch up on the college paperwork, check status etc… day, raining here in Texas. I have an older daughter also in college now, so I have a good idea of our need and he’ll qualify for full Pell, the Stafford, would have been for the 1st two years of the ACG grant that my daughter got, and then the SMART grant, but they’ve cut that program (federal, not state), in addition he will be Texas Grant qualified, if there is money left, the FSEOG (again if funds are there)he’s not opposed to work study, though I worry about that on top of freshman year engineering classes, plus A&M has the Aggie Assurance plan, though how long that will last, who knows. </p>

<p>At a private Texas school he’d also be eligible for the Tuition Equalization Grant which is one reason my daughter was able to attend private college, but I fully expect that to be in the budget cuts too.</p>

<p>He did apply to University of Alabama and received the out of state tuition covered w/a small stipend from the engineering department.</p>

<p>Louisiana Tech which has such a low COA that with the Bulldog OOS scholarship and another merit scholarship that coupled with the Pell and a Stafford, it would basically cover everything (they seem to have a growing engineering honor’s program with fairly high standards that he could meet). We met several Texas residents there who were attending because they were priced out of our state schools. (note, they have several levels of scholarships based on GPA and SAT/ACT scores that make them a viable option for OOS students who do not have really high GPA’s or scores. You only need a 24 or 1090 with a 2.6 for the OOS tuition scholarship. </p>

<p>SMU (Southern Methodist University) also gave him a merit scholarship based on GPA & ACT scores and an Engineering Leadership Scholarship that puts them firmly in the running till we see the need based package. However SMU is not the first choice of a private for son, he feels a lot of the students are the type that he doesn’t pal around with at his private prep, (ie; not math,science,computer, improv kids) but realizes that most of the ones in the engineering program will be that type. </p>

<p>But none of these so far have engineering programs that match the ranking at A&M. We are trying to determine just how important ranking is for an engineering undergrad. He’s also waiting on a decision from Tulane (quite a few kids from our school go there, his CA feels sure he’ll get in, in fact Tulane was the other suggestion from CA based on his need for aid) and Lafayette in PA, where he’s heard from both the dean of admissions and the TX admission rep about their desire to enroll more students from our area and he should be a contender but with such a small student body, it’s never a given. He’s also applied to LeHigh and I have no idea how that will go. </p>

<p>Then some reach schools that are all 100% need met, but they are just that, reaches. plus a couple other schools that he’s gotten merit scholarships and honors invites, that aren’t high on his list, but are still schools he would consider. He knows finances are important and is mature enough to make the decision. There is not a school on his intensive list that he would not depend. </p>

<p>He has 2 ultimate safety schools. University of Texas at Tyler, they have a very small engineering department, but he could live with his grandfather, be in the honor’s program and he was offered a merit scholarship there as well, though not as much as A&M’s. He attended an engineering camp there one summer and was invited back to do a robotics research project with the dean the next summer (which he did) and he would not have a problem going there. The scholarship would allow him to live in the dorm and if the budget cut it, the grandfather option would be there. The other safety is LeTourneau University, there are mainly an engineering school, private so tuition is high, but he’s got a scholarship there that with Pell and Stafford, is doable. He could in theory commute, it would be an hour drive down the interstate everyday, which is its own expense of course. He attended a LEGO robotics class there, and a STEM weekend, and would attend. Low on females but they’re adding nursing in an attempt to get a balance and they have a STEM scholarship he should be a strong contender for if he does electrical engineering. But again, the ranking thing. Course we don’t have to make a decision till offers are in. </p>

<p>We send 6 or so to UT Austin and A&M every year, and already there is a problem with getting housing and more of a concern, classes in early years and I would expect that to increase with budget cuts. </p>

<p>Rice is his dream school (if he has one) and I would say he has a chance, but percent wise, any school with less than a 25% acceptance rate seems a toss-up to me, but who knows. We didn’t do EA or ED based on counselor advice due to the aid issue, now I’m wondering if maybe we should have. Lafayette is giving him the chance to change from RD to ED by Feb 1, but we haven’t visited yet (hopefully after in the next month or so if I can arrange the budget and care for his dad). Counselor is not familiar with the school and is cautioning him not to make a decision with full information. Texas rep says he attempted to visit our school last fall, but couldn’t find a date that would work, but says a couple of the prep schools in the Dallas/Ft. Worth are familiar with the school and so we could probably get information from one of them. </p>

<p>But he’s going somewhere though we may not know till April 30th. Just uneasy about encouraging him to consider A&M if funding may be cut. I will ask about the likelihood of the scholarship being cut, but I assume even if they tell me no, they are not bound by that answer 3 years down the road? Anyone know if you get it writing, does that hold up?</p>

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<p>I wonder whether your apparently very smart S is going to be really challenged at LeTourneau, etc. Texas A & M sounds like a great option; there will be enough other high-achieving students that your son will have a challenging peer group, and the engineering program is one of the best in the country. The presence of distinguished grad programs is also a plus for a good student. Even if, at this point, they can’t absolutely guarantee four years of scholarship support, I bet anything that if your S is already enrolled there and doing really well, they will do everything in their power to keep him. Almost every university has some funds they can tap for such purposes.</p>

<p>Rice is also a wonderful possibility–I’d thought of mentioning it in my first post–I’ve heard it gives generous need-based aid.</p>

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<p>If you’re looking at UC Berkeley engineering, the department still has a long-standing requirement that you graduate in 4 years:
[Freshman</a> Admission FAQ — UC Berkeley College of Engineering](<a href=“Prospective freshman FAQs - Berkeley Engineering”>Prospective freshman FAQs - Berkeley Engineering)</p>

<p>Berkeley is also generous with AP credits.</p>

<p>Budget cuts have not had an impact like some of the doomsday propaganda people have been spouting off on here.</p>

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I wouldn’t worry about it. Chances are (and studies have shown) it would only help make him manage his time even better. These kinds of jobs are also usually pretty flexible with hours and overall hours are usually low anyway. Of course, it’ll mean your S will be pretty busy but that’s not a bad thing.</p>

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<p>The son of a friend won a four-year scholarship to UMass Amherst which cut tuition quite a bit but the scholarship amount was fixed. MA has been cranking up fees to make up for state revenue shortfalls. Of course the merit aid doesn’t go up along with the fees.</p>

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<p>I would have less concern about sending my child to a state school majoring in fields such as engineering and business if those programs are strong; it seems to me that their links to industry and the resulting importance to the school and its reputation further insure that cuts will be minimized in those areas.</p>

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<p>^^ Good point which is why I say one needs to look at the specifics when making a decision. As examples, a huge amount of money has been given to the engineering schools of UCLA (by Henry Samueli of Broadcom fame) and UCSD (by Irwin Jacobs of Qualcomm fame) which helps a lot.</p>

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<p>Scribbulus, I completely understand your concern. My S attends LSU, and Louisiana is in even a worse situation than TX (where we also live) in regard to cuts to higher ed. The best schools for his major are all flagships (LSU’s program is currently ranked #1), and I was very concerned about the impending doom that was to befall state schools after the stimulus funding expired. My S is also on a scholarship, and I had similar questions in regard to whether the obligations outlined in his award letter would be honored in future years. </p>

<p>What we were told by LSU is that the terms laid out in the award letter will be honored throughout the student’s matriculation. When you visit TAMU, it would be a good idea to meet with a financial aid rep who is knowledgeable about the scholarship awards to clarify the terms of your S’s scholarship. For example, my S is in a 5 year bachelor’s degree program that requires study abroad, so we needed to clarify questions regarding support for all 5 years plus the study abroad component. </p>

<p>TAMU is a great engineering school so you can’t go wrong with that choice. My S’s major is also ranked very highly there, but he didn’t feel that the school was a good fit (too conservative, didn’t like the Corps presence, not into the Aggie traditions, etc). So, even though TAMU was the only viable in-state option for his major, S did not end up applying there. TAMU seems to have a “love it or leave it” feeling among prospies; IMO, a visit is a very good idea. Of course, if it was the only viable option for my S financially, I am sure he would have adapted (with heavy parental persuasion). </p>

<p>Since engineering is one of the premier programs at TAMU, I doubt it would be affected by budget cuts. However, students may feel some impact as a result of overall cuts to the institution.</p>

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<p>A & M sounds like a great option in this economy.</p>